UK Urges Germany To Pull Its Weight More On Defense

[Amur_Tiger]

Except for France, there is no one in Europe with truly independent nukes.
The british Trident subs are depending on US targeting data and are for all intents and purposes the british participation in US deterrence, not a national nuclear strike for like the old V-Bombers.

There is no immidiate military threat in Europe right now, so the aim of german military policy should be to preserve a core of armed forces that can expand into a large force if the need arises and in the meantime is able to conduct limited foreign missions to serve german national interests abroad.
Even the ebil Russianz won't just simply pop out of Hyperspace like in MW3 but would need a substantial revamping of forces (far more substantial than anything announced by the Russian government) to become a conventional threat for Germany.
Not to mention other far flung potential threats like a Islamic Superstate mounting a military invasion of Europe or so.

I think we should have the potential to engage in about division size in Europe and maybe send a brigade size force or less worldwide.
The only thing I would really do is substantially upgrade the Navy, but that is me as ex navy.
Germany is depending on foreign resources and should be able to defend oceanic commerce.

2 Helo capable Landing ships comparable to HMS Ocean (you need at least two to have one operational), a class of decent air warfare destroyers comparable to type 45s or Arleigh Burkes and a bunch of lesser ASW Frigates would be good, not those ultra-expensive useless F125 abominations.

I'd tend to agree with this, smaller overall militaries but making a higher proportion of them deployable makes a ton of sense, especially for countries with secure borders and lots of friends around them. The Navy and air force would then become targets for more spending proportionally due to both being involved in helping deploy forces to far corners of the world. As much as this makes sense I think this would also be good for Canada, with the added benefit that a strong air force and navy would help defend/establish sovereignty over some of the contested north.

[Astaran]

Except for France, there is no one in Europe with truly independent nukes.
The british Trident subs are depending on US targeting data and are for all intents and purposes the british participation in US deterrence, not a national nuclear strike for like the old V-Bombers.

There is no immidiate military threat in Europe right now, so the aim of german military policy should be to preserve a core of armed forces that can expand into a large force if the need arises and in the meantime is able to conduct limited foreign missions to serve german national interests abroad.
Even the ebil Russianz won't just simply pop out of Hyperspace like in MW3 but would need a substantial revamping of forces (far more substantial than anything announced by the Russian government) to become a conventional threat for Germany.
Not to mention other far flung potential threats like a Islamic Superstate mounting a military invasion of Europe or so.

I think we should have the potential to engage in about division size in Europe and maybe send a brigade size force or less worldwide.
The only thing I would really do is substantially upgrade the Navy, but that is me as ex navy.
Germany is depending on foreign resources and should be able to defend oceanic commerce.

2 Helo capable Landing ships comparable to HMS Ocean (you need at least two to have one operational), a class of decent air warfare destroyers comparable to type 45s or Arleigh Burkes and a bunch of lesser ASW Frigates would be good, not those ultra-expensive useless F125 abominations.

Sounds good to me, although I would go for 3 Helo capable ships (1 in drydock, 1 in preparation, 1 on deployment) and buff the naval Infantry to have someone specialised in all kinds of amphibious missions

[Speckwolf]

Germany getting nukes is one of the more unrealistic things I ever read on this forum . Could be a nice thing to be pointed out by a "politician" of the Pirate party, though...

Seriously, I think that Germany is already doing quite a bit. Look at how many Bundeswehr soldiers are deployed around the world right now. Agreed, I would often like to see our soldiers behave a little more "robust", for example in Afghanistan. But hey, these things take time. I wouldn't have believed we would ever deploy Marders or some PZH 2000 to another country a couple of years ago.

Just give this stuff a little more time, it will become more and more natural for Germany to do its part in international military missions. Things like actually NOT joining the Lybia mission were discussed very controversely in Germany. M. Westerwelle got under a lot of pressure for not helping out the rebels. See it as an ongoing, multi-year process.

[mhpr262]

Germany getting nukes is one of the more unrealistic things I ever read on this forum

And that is putting it mildly ... we do not have enough money for our army, our navy and our air forces, so what should we do? Yep, spend a few billions on building and storing totally useless nuclear warheads, along with their carrier systems and security

[Steak-Sauce]

Germany is depending on foreign resources and should be able to defend oceanic commerce.

2 Helo capable Landing ships comparable to HMS Ocean (you need at least two to have one operational), a class of decent air warfare destroyers comparable to type 45s or Arleigh Burkes and a bunch of lesser ASW Frigates would be good, not those ultra-expensive useless F125 abominations.

Sounds good to me, although I would go for 3 Helo capable ships (1 in drydock, 1 in preparation, 1 on deployment) and buff the naval Infantry to have someone specialised in all kinds of amphibious missions

And where are you getting the money from to buy all this new stuff? By reducing / slashing Heer and Luftwaffe units? Three LPHs à la HMS Ocean that are bigger in size than the current Berlin-class replenishment ships sounds to me like an awful waste of money, or a silly attempt to gain a "Platz an der Sonne". These ships need crews, helicopters, landing craft, and infantry - in other words, more money need to be thrown at them, to fill up all this empty space in their hulls to make them somehow efficient. Not to mention that their primary task won't be "to defend oceanic commerce", but humanitarian assistance first and foremost. This part alone makes me wonder how often they would actually deploy instead of being reduced to "pier queens".

I'd rather see additional funds being allocated to specialized Bundeswehr units, i.e. to the boots on the ground, to be honest.

[RSone]

A class of decent air warfare destroyers comparable to type 45s or Arleigh Burkes and a bunch of lesser ASW Frigates would be good, not those ultra-expensive useless F125 abominations.

You have the Sachsen class..Unless you think these are too light/small.

[JCR]

You have the Sachsen class..Unless you think these are too light/small.

Compare them with the Zeven Provincien class. That is the answer.
Like all german surface ships post 1990, the 124s were ordered to pay the maximum amount of money for the least increase in capability.
The dutch class is a decent all round missile destroyer while the 124s were the attempt for a quick and dirty Lütjens class replacement as cheaply as possible.
And I must it is still amazing that we failed to enter into the Aster project, with all that other european cooperation, but that decision was taken in the early 1990s allready.

[RSone]

Compare them with the Zeven Provincien class. That is the answer.
Like all german surface ships post 1990, the 124s were ordered to pay the maximum amount of money for the least increase in capability.
The dutch class is a decent all round missile destroyer while the 124s were the attempt for a quick and dirty Lütjens class replacement as cheaply as possible.
And I must it is still amazing that we failed to enter into the Aster project, with all that other european cooperation, but that decision was taken in the early 1990s allready.

I know the RNLN is extremely pleased with the performance of the DZP's, but they have a direct hotline to Thales Nederland, and the MoD has invested significantly in upgrades for SMART-L and APAR(hence the, now probably shelved, plans to buy SM-3 for the class) I take it that hasn't been the case in Germany?
On the other hand, our military lost some rather important capabilities in other areas..

[JCR]

The 124s had software problems in the first years and were not capable of operating in the air defense role.
This was apparently solved in 2010 and they're now fully capable, but from what I head, each ship basically has its own software infrastructure so they seem to be operating in eternal beta mode...
The 124 has short VLS systems that preclude the loading of cruise missiles and (I think) of extended range standard missiles.

[Astaran]

And where are you getting the money from to buy all this new stuff? By reducing / slashing Heer and Luftwaffe units? Three LPHs à la HMS Ocean that are bigger in size than the current Berlin-class replenishment ships sounds to me like an awful waste of money, or a silly attempt to gain a "Platz an der Sonne". These ships need crews, helicopters, landing craft, and infantry - in other words, more money need to be thrown at them, to fill up all this empty space in their hulls to make them somehow efficient. Not to mention that their primary task won't be "to defend oceanic commerce", but humanitarian assistance first and foremost. This part alone makes me wonder how often they would actually deploy instead of being reduced to "pier queens".

I'd rather see additional funds being allocated to specialized Bundeswehr units, i.e. to the boots on the ground, to be honest.

Aren't the Joint Support Ships something along the line of an "Ocean-class light"? The last thing I heard about the JSS did sound like some sort of helicopter platform for amphibious operations. We don't need a true LHD/LHA like Wasp or America-class. Something smaller to deploy something like 2 reinforced companies would be enough.

Imho the development of an amphibious branch within the German Bundeswehr would fit the current and coming challenges the Germany faces. Remember when German GSG-9 operators had to use the USS Boxer as they tried to free German hostages (and the raid was ultimately not permitted by the US commander).
Of course, if they are used as "pier queens" they would be a huge waste of money, but I see also an opportunity if they are used as intended. One vessel should always be deployed to conduct visits, maneuvers with allied forces, to show presence etc.

The money is an entirely different topic and you are right: I don't see much hope to free enough money for such a concept. But on the other hand, with the current political caste ruling in Germany (no matter the "different" parties), I don't have much hope for our military at all

[Steak-Sauce]

I sincerly hope that you know that both the Wasp-class and future America-class are bigger than every non-American aircraft carriers currently sailing the seas? The deployment of two reinforced companies of marine infantry doesn't justify the purchase of two or even three ships of this size. Maybe we should look into reviving the old high speed transports concept ("APDs" in WWII) on F124 / F125 basis and equipped with CB90s while we're at it. Might save us a few bucks, but I doubt that as well.

What has happened that there's suddenly such a big interest in the navy, of all TSKs?

Speaking of money, there isn't even a decision what will replace the current Sea Kings and Sea Lynx. And then there is the SOF-LUH.. auweia. Oh, and let's not forget the CH-53 replacement some time in the very distant future.

[Astaran]

I sincerly hope that you know that both the Wasp-class and future America-class are bigger than every non-American aircraft carriers currently sailing the seas? The deployment of two reinforced companies of marine infantry doesn't justify the purchase of two or even three ships of this size. Maybe we should look into reviving the old high speed transports concept ("APDs" in WWII) on F124 / F125 basis and equipped with CB90s while we're at it. Might save us a few bucks, but I doubt that as well.

What has happened that there's suddenly such a big interest in the navy, of all TSKs?

Speaking of money, there isn't even a decision what will replace the current Sea Kings and Sea Lynx. And then there is the SOF-LUH.. auweia. Oh, and let's not forget the CH-53 replacement some time in the very distant future.

Oh yes, I know how big the Wasp and Americas are. In my wet dreams Germany owns three of them, but we have to stay realistic

I don't know why everybody seems to be so interested in the Marine nowadays. Probably because the biggest part of Germanys imports and exports are coming through the sea routes and we have some prominent deployments (UNIFIL, Atalanta, OEF) in which our navy participates. I think big grey ships are just more eye-catching (no offense to our Heer and Lustwaffen soldiers ).
Oh, and please don't take the two companies to literally. Personally I wouldn't go beneath an entire battalion for any sort of expeditionary adventure, but I doubt Germany could extent our MSK to a level, where they could deploy three entire battalions for amphibious operations

[Quietscheentchen]

Looking back at how the use of the German military evolved over the years, i would be hesitant with any specific prognosis regarding how the future will look like. I remember how we discussed sending the Bundeswehr to Bosnia in school back in the nineties. No one of us would have thought that our armed forces once would be involved in all that action of the last years. Never.
I see the financial factor as the main blocking point, not so much the political factor (although it plays a very important role, too).

[Breakfast in Vegas]

I don't know why everybody seems to be so interested in the Marine nowadays. Probably because the biggest part of Germanys imports and exports are coming through the sea routes and we have some prominent deployments (UNIFIL, Atalanta, OEF) in which our navy participates. I think big grey ships are just more eye-catching (no offense to our Heer and Lustwaffen soldiers ).

Also the Somalia anti-terror and anti-pirate missions have drawn attention to the Marine.

[Hildemel]

We need to fix the German military first. There is too much inefficient crap messing with stuff.

Germany's interests don't end at the borders of Europe. Germany must be ready to defend it's assets, citizens and interests overseas just as any other modern nation.

The last President said something similar.....it was near political suicide as a result.

I'd rather see additional funds being allocated to specialized Bundeswehr units, i.e. to the boots on the ground, to be honest.

I'd personally like to see more funds allocated to my Unit. We want new Leos at some point.