Israeli know-how boosts Russia's armed UAS project

[C.Puffs]

yes, canada enforcement to ussr air bases, seems was too expensive. also ussr had not strategic bombers.
what is wrong? ussr had a threat from usa of a-bombing. ussr had replied to eliminate this threat.
point.

How did it eliminate it? We built nearly 800 B-52s and several thousand B-47s. We fly three types of strategic bomber today.

[merk666]

How did it eliminate it? We built nearly 800 B-52s and several thousand B-47s. We fly three types of strategic bomber today.

you fly them not over russia. that's what we need.
for ussr, and russia they have been eliminated. kinda this

[Climber]

imho, you are right. Our strategic enemy is nato, or small countries militarized by nato(kinda georgia). but we can't use uav here as israel do. kinda violating aerial space of nato friend(or member). israel can violate syrian(for example) aerial border, western community will ignore it. but we can't, else we ll have sanctions and great political and media war against us. life is real.

We are the Juice we own the world so we do what we please, you know that, right?

Actually it was the other way round, the Georgian UAV violated the airspace ...
Small scale UAVs are RC planes on steroids.

Do you know this tale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes

This is what you are saying, read it.

it looks like intelligence satellite, not used for positioning or communication? and there only 3 still in operation. lifespan - 1-3 years.

yeah we suck.

[artjomh]

Do you know this tale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes

A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away (15 pages previously), before this thread went to utter sh~t, I already asked simple questions about UAV employment doctrine.

The answers were WEAK, absolutely pathetic attempts to reverse the question in the style of "Well, don't you think they'll need it for some reason sometime in the future?" Like I said, absolutely pathetic.

If you think you have a better answer, go ahead and try me. But don't waste our time here with this passive aggressive posturing. We are not dumb. We do see a difference between something that has no use and something that has use, but that we can't make yet.

The only reason why the development of MALE recce UAVs and UCAVs has stalled is because the military doesn't really know what it's going to do with them and without a proper RFP, major aircraft manufacturers aren't even bothering.

At this point, development of a Russian UCAV feels like a "ME TOO!" project without serious tactical doctrine behind it. I am struggling to see situations where Russian Air Force will benefit from use of UCAVs. Is there suddenly a shortage in Russian tactical aviation that I missed?

But what is the tactical advantage for Russia in particular? If UAVs are essentially going neck-in-neck with manned aircraft, what is the benefit of investing in long-range unmanned aircraft for Russia in particular? I am all for battalion-level systems, but investing heavily in MALE seems like a solution looking for a problem. After all, Russia isn't hunting anyone in Waziristan and Georgia was stomped by a combined arms Navy/Army/VDV/Air Force operation like it was ain't no thang.

The fact that the mean man on BBC questioned Russia's manhood for not having as many UAVs as Israel or US doesn't strike me as a valid rationale.

None of these questions were answered to my satisfaction. If you think you can do better, shoot.

[EITAN88]

None of these questions were answered to my satisfaction. If you think you can do better, shoot.

Sorry that I can't live up to your demands... seems like the Russian MoD has lower standards than you when it comes to evaluating its need for more advanced UAV systems.

[Climber]

Actually it was the other way round, the Georgian UAV violated the airspace ...
Small scale UAVs are RC planes on steroids.

A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away (15 pages previously), before this thread went to utter sh~t, I already asked simple questions about UAV employment doctrine.

The answers were WEAK, absolutely pathetic attempts to reverse the question in the style of "Well, don't you think they'll need it for some reason sometime in the future?" Like I said, absolutely pathetic.

If you think you have a better answer, go ahead and try me. But don't waste our time here with this passive aggressive posturing. We are not dumb. We do see a difference between something that has no use and something that has use, but that we can't make yet.





None of these questions were answered to my satisfaction. If you think you can do better, shoot.

I know **** about UAV's, I am an infantry veteran from 2 armies, but I know a 2 or 3 things about life in general, and what this dude Grax said about R/C models on steroids, is exactly what Aesop meant with his fabule, if you find that a passive aggressive posture, go and cry to a shrink...or to Grax... or to Aesop....or whatever.

[Flamming_Python]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away (15 pages previously), before this thread went to utter sh~t, I already asked simple questions about UAV employment doctrine.

The answers were WEAK, absolutely pathetic attempts to reverse the question in the style of "Well, don't you think they'll need it for some reason sometime in the future?" Like I said, absolutely pathetic.

If you think you have a better answer, go ahead and try me. But don't waste our time here with this passive aggressive posturing. We are not dumb. We do see a difference between something that has no use and something that has use, but that we can't make yet.



None of these questions were answered to my satisfaction. If you think you can do better, shoot.

artjomh, I believe I answered all of your concerns to a satisfactory degree. UAVs and UCAVs have a huge variety of possible uses in the Russian armed forces, where they can be employed to significantly enhance, amongst other things - remote surveillance & destruction of irregular militias/bandit formations, intelligence on enemy positions/gun emplacements/defenses/anti-aircraft systems/etc..., tactical awareness for infantry units, vehicle visibility & situational awareness, and artillery accuracy.

[artjomh]

Sorry that I can't live up to your demands... seems like the Russian MoD has lower standards than you when it comes to evaluating its need for more advanced UAV systems.

Oh, the examples I could give you of irrational procurement decision-making! The list is glorious in its absurdity.

Instead, I'll just direct you to regularly read MP.net. Every week we have this or that thread b~tching about weird nonsensical choices their military makes.

artjomh, I believe I answered all of your concerns to a satisfactory degree. UAVs and UCAVs have a huge variety of possible uses in the Russian armed forces, where they can be employed to significantly enhance, amongst other things - remote surveillance & destruction of irregular militias/bandit formations,

Because... a Su-25 has suddenly disappeared from Russian arsenal?

intelligence on enemy positions/gun emplacements/defenses/anti-aircraft systems/etc..., tactical awareness for infantry units, vehicle visibility & situational awareness, and artillery accuracy.

I want to facepalm, because people apparently don't read what I already said about the difference between tactical UAVs and long-range UAVs and Russian military's attitude toward them.

[Climber]

artjomh, I believe I answered all of your concerns to a satisfactory degree. UAVs and UCAVs have a huge variety of possible uses in the Russian armed forces, where they can be employed to significantly enhance, amongst other things - remote surveillance & destruction of irregular militias/bandit formations, intelligence on enemy positions/gun emplacements/defenses/anti-aircraft systems/etc..., tactical awareness for infantry units, vehicle visibility & situational awareness, and artillery accuracy.

Hey Artjomh, what FP and Marsh said, looks ok to me.............

[artjomh]

Hey Artjomh, what FP and Marsh said, looks ok to me.............

It doesn't to me, because this is amateur hour and people don't read what I said. But for the sake of everyone's clarity:

- Russian armed forces extensively use tactical UAVs (think IAI Bird-Eye) for tactical reconnaissance and artillery calibration. There is scientific doctrinal basis for this and it largely fits with earlier Soviet UAV practice.

- Russian armed forces have no apparent need to a tactical UCAV because they have a very large arsenal of assault and close air support aviation, including helicopters and CAS aircraft.

- Russian armed forces have no apparent need for a strategic UAV or UCAV because current Russian military doctrine and foreign policy do not envision a large global role for the Russian military, and any kind of long-range deterrence is handled by a very large arsenal of strategic and quasi-strategic bombers.

I thought all of these were a given and I don't have to spell them out. But apparently, I do.

So, gentlemen, if you can find a role for UAVs in the current Russian military doctrine, given the above mentioned constraints, be my guest. I am genuinely curious.

[EITAN88]

Oh, the examples I could give you of irrational procurement decision-making! The list is glorious in its absurdity.

Instead, I'll just direct you to regularly read MP.net. Every week we have this or that thread b~tching about weird nonsensical choices their military makes.

Enhancing Russia's capabilities in this field isn't comparable to an "irrational procurement". Such a mode of thinking either stems from shortsightedness or pride or perhaps even both.

Fact remains that possible scenarios where Russia could utilize MALE UAVs do exist. You being unable to argue with this fact doesn't make it "pathetic".

[Climber]

It doesn't to me, because this is amateur hour and people don't read what I said. But for the sake of everyone's clarity:

- Russian armed forces extensively use tactical UAVs (think IAI Bird-Eye) for tactical reconnaissance and artillery calibration. There is scientific doctrinal basis for this and it largely fits with earlier Soviet UAV practice.

- Russian armed forces have no apparent need to a tactical UCAV because they have a very large arsenal of assault and close air support aviation, including helicopters and CAS aircraft.

- Russian armed forces have no apparent need for a strategic UAV or UCAV because current Russian military doctrine and foreign policy do not envision a large global role for the Russian military, and any kind of long-range deterrence is handled by a very large arsenal of strategic and quasi-strategic bombers.

I thought all of these were a given and I don't have to spell them out. But apparently, I do.

So, gentlemen, if you can find a role for UAVs in the current Russian military doctrine, given the above mentioned constraints, be my guest. I am genuinely curious.

I cant help you with that I am totally amateur as I told you, but I guess maybe they want to change doctrine in the future? I really dont know. Maybe they want to have the same toys the western armies have.

[artjomh]

Maybe they want to have the same toys the western armies have.

That would be my opinion as well. All of this stinks of "me too" projects.

When the Russian military community wants to push out some new idea for the transformation of armed forces, there is an established academic protocol. When ideas of Net-Centric Warfare or battalion tactical groups were coming into the fore, there were articles about it in the Military Thought (sort of the Russian version of Proceedings).

It's not like these things just appear out of nowhere, without any rational basis. Until, in some bizarre cases, they do...

[merk666]

i think this kind of AV could be better. if he has RPG on board.


by the way - good tool for terrorists

[EITAN88]

- Russian armed forces have no apparent need to a tactical UCAV because they have a very large arsenal of assault and close air support aviation, including helicopters and CAS aircraft.

- Russian armed forces have no apparent need for a strategic UAV or UCAV because current Russian military doctrine and foreign policy do not envision a large global role for the Russian military, and any kind of long-range deterrence is handled by a very large arsenal of strategic and quasi-strategic bombers.

I thought all of these were a given and I don't have to spell them out. But apparently, I do.

So, gentlemen, if you can find a role for UAVs in the current Russian military doctrine, given the above mentioned constraints, be my guest. I am genuinely curious.

Does Russia have a CAS platform that can potentialy loiter over an area/target for 24 hours or more?