In West Bank, barrier threatens Roman terraces

[Ordie]

Hollis,

All good points.
I'm sure Arafat owed his life and favors to others who were threaten by an agreement.

One of the keys in negotiating is knowing your constituency better than the people across the table.
The Israelis were probably more secure on what they can live with than the Palestinians.

[Climber]

Destroying roman architecture thats just wrong, plus it's still serving a proposing even today which is amazing.

[EITAN88]

Destroying roman architecture thats just wrong, plus it's still serving a proposing even today which is amazing.

No one is going to destroy the terraces.

The real issue at hand is access to the fields by the farmers.

The state and the IDF have promised such access through gates in the fence for this purpose.

There is no valid argument against the route of the fence and thus the Supreme Court isn't halting its construction.

[Climber]

Hollis,

All good points.
I'm sure Arafat owed his life and favors to others who were threaten by an agreement.

One of the keys in negotiating is knowing your constituency better than the people across the table.
The Israelis were probably more secure on what they can live with than the Palestinians.

Thats for sure. Given Rabin was murdered, I could brag about that any Israeli could have negotiated without fear for his life, but sadly, I can't, but you get the idea, right?

[Ordie]

Thats for sure. Given Rabin was murdered, I could brag about that any Israeli could have negotiated without fear for his life, but sadly, I can't, but you get the idea, right?

One of the benefits in having regular elections and polling is knowing how far can you go.

[Camera]

There could be more to this story. He made his billions on the violence (3+ billion). His wife lived very well in France.

The conflict was not limited to Palestine and Israel. It was part of the greater battles of the cold war, it has been used by dictators to maintain the oppression of their own people, etc. Arafat was a terrorist for hire. Often with people like him, it was not just himself in control.

The rejection of having a Palestinian state, probably shows that the real goal was never a two state solution. If he was for the Palestinian people, he would have accepted the deal and built from there. The other aspect, the billions in support that the PA/PLO received on a global level would probably diminish to some lesser degree. Arafat wealth and global fame was based on violence.

It has been one of the most successful run propaganda campaigns in out life time.

The other part, he may not have had the control of the PA necessary to become a state. The other terrorist's organization that operated with immunity, validity was based on terrorism. A state solution would have force them to cease their attacks. That could have created a bigger problem, a kind of civil war in Palestine.

To be a states, the state needs to operate by rule of law. The Palestinian people would be given basic human rights, like free speech. So far under Arafat, a Palestinian free speech often ended with being dragged out into the street, shot and hung from a lamp post.

The other consideration is that promoting over 50 years of hate is difficult to reverse.

Probably the other noticeable contribution to maintain the violence, is to watch how it has been used by neighboring countries, including Iran.

If the struggle was for the Liberation of the Palestinian people and their own state, the conflict would have ended long ago. There are and were just to many other parties and states that have a interest in maintaining the conflict. If it was only a cold war issue, it probably should have ended by now.

I think it is important that there is a two State solution. While it may not completely end the violence it would alter how other countries play their part in the continuation of the violence in Israel and Palestine.

You exposed very well the variety of considerations that probably entered into balance. Sadly, many of these considerations remain relevant nowadays and block an eventual progression on this issue. And the PLO people who were with Arafat in Camp David are still there.

[Henry's Fork]

Soooo in a nutshell, the terraces ARE NOT being destroyed, and the Arab Farmers will STILL HAVE ACCESS to the fields. Israel still gets its wall FOR PROTECTION against rampant terrorism.

Sounds like a good plan. win win.

[EITAN88]

Soooo in a nutshell, the terraces ARE NOT being destroyed, and the Arab Farmers will STILL HAVE ACCESS to the fields. Israel still gets its wall FOR PROTECTION against rampant terrorism.

Sounds like a good plan. win win.

Anyone with a sound sense of logic would understand this but there are people out there who have a very clear agenda to vilify what is clearly a life saving security barrier.

[Ordie]

[QUOTE=EITAN88;6173731]Anyone with a sound sense of logic would understand this but there are people out there who have a very clear agenda to vilify what is clearly a life saving security barrier.[/

Building bridges is better than building walls.

[Climber]

Anyone with a sound sense of logic would understand this but there are people out there who have a very clear agenda to vilify what is clearly a life saving security barrier.

Building bridges is better than building walls.

We know that Ordie, we know that, we are not morons, the problem with bridges is that they can be used to send walking bombs, so when that happen you just build a wall, or a fence. We learned the hard way.

[Ordie]

We know that Ordie, we know that, we are not morons, the problem with bridges is that they can be used to send walking bombs, so when that happen you just build a wall, or a fence. We learned the hard way.

That's the problem for the past 45 years in the West Bank.

Always reactive to a situation, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

But creating new problems for the grandkids of the IDF soldiers who first entered Jerusalem in 1967.

[Climber]

That's the problem for the past 45 years in the West Bank.

Always reactive to a situation, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

But creating new problems for the grandkids of the IDF soldiers who first entered Jerusalem in 1967.

Reactive to which situation? Building the wall is being proactive, let them blow themselves against the concrete instead of next to my "uncle".

I understand what you say, and its dismissive of the Arab responsibility, they do not assume responsibility, its not part of their culture, as we see in egypt. Now, we build the wall, and wait, maybe they will take responsibility for what they've done, and act accord with that, instead of crying foul every minute.

[Ordie]

You can't assume Arabs don't take responsibility.
They overthrew three despotic regimes in the past year.

Besides, do you want your kids to fight the same battles as your dad, and yourself on the same turf?

It's groundhog day.

That's why its important to keep trying for a political solution.

[Token White Guy]

You can't assume Arabs don't take responsibility.
They overthrew three despotic regimes in the past year.

Besides, do you want your kids to fight the same battles as your dad, and yourself on the same turf?

It's groundhog day.

That's why its important to keep trying for a political solution.

There have been tons of political solutions. The problem is the Palestinians break them in a matter of hours or they won't except them because it defeats their whole cause of reclaiming the entire state of Israel.

[EITAN88]

You can't assume Arabs don't take responsibility.
They overthrew three despotic regimes in the past year.

Besides, do you want your kids to fight the same battles as your dad, and yourself on the same turf?

It's groundhog day.

That's why its important to keep trying for a political solution.

Sometimes I really wonder whether you are actually in touch with reality.

In San Fransisco you might have the luxury of relying on hopes and dreams but we who actually live in this region with its realities and not in a land of 'rainbows and unicorns' can't do that.