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Thread: How Many U.S. Marines Could Bring Down the Roman Empire?

  1. #226
    Milo Drinker of Death Flagg's Avatar
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    Here's how I'd crack the nut.

    Short term plan: Arrival to +30/60 days

    Where the F am I?!?! Maps......assuming I ain't got any......PRIORITY tasking down the track

    First tasking is a recce to find the best bit of open country, high ground dominant, easily defensible piece of dirt to set up a primary FOB and satellite/patrol FOBs.......in an area with secure water sources, food, and raw building materials(forestry).

    Second tasking is to seize said bit of dirt and build hasty defensive positions with an eye towards company centric defensive operations.

    Concurrent activity is to reach deep into my Marines service and civilian relevant skill and knowledge base to create the following part-time planning cells:

    Food Cell: Marines gotta eat, how do you feed them in the short-to-medium term? farm/fish/hunt/trap/scavenge

    Medical/Public Health/Hygiene/Water Cell: Run by unit medical officer and medics. Develop an acclimatization plan that rotates sub units through the local water while maintaining majority on purified water overwatch while cycling through. Develop a plan to maintain overall defensive security and freedom of movement/maneuver while also ensuring physical isolation of sub units for ease of quarantine due to unforeseen infectious disease. Treat the AO as a foreign planet.

    Communications Cell: Run by Sigs. Coms plan between sub-units in a world without modern wireless coms.

    Mapping/Topography Cell: Accurate maps are to be generated of the immediate AO using organic tools available. Laser range finders, optics, mil-dot reticles can be pulled from unit(s) in depth and used to develop workable surveying tools in conjunction with engineering cell. Long term plan is to develop topo maps of the regional AO.

    Engineering Master Cell: Short term planning includes semi-permanent housing, mobility, relevant defensive position construction, CQB weapons, energy conservation/generation, clothing, etc.

    Tactical Planning Cell: Run by the S3 and OCs. Adjust tactical doctrine to match time/space/threat. Dominate/shape the local AO. How to SURVIVE TO the medium/long-term.

    Training Cell: Run by training SNCOs. Everyone will have to retrain and multi-task...in both their primary MOS as well as secondary critical skillsets based on their prior experience/knowledge and needs of the unit. Everything from CQB and engineering through to anatomy/physiology and foreign language.

    Psych/Social Cell: You've gone back in time.....that's some heavy sh!t. Someone's got to figure out how to brew beer for the collective wake and build morale from there. Also, to better ensure the continued, and hopefully permanent, physical integrity of the unit.

    Historical Intelligence Cell: Run by the S2 shop. What happened back in the day and why? TEWTS OPFOR to ascertain tactical and strategic strengths/weaknesses. Since most INT will be HUMINT.....this cell would also develop a local language/cultural immersion program.

    Strategic Planning Master Cell: Run by the CO. Adjust strategic doctrine to time/space/threat. Dominate/shape the regional(global?) AO. Provide guidance to other planning cells to adjust for the longer term over time as required and tactical goals are achieved. How to THRIVE THRU the long-term.

    Medium Term Plan: 30/60 days to 1/2 years

    Recce for the best regional strategic base of operations, preferably a port and/or major MSR adjacent to open country, and defensible agriculture/water supply.

    Ask for, but if necessary, seize local control.

    Add permanent governance/administration/economic/local law enforcement master cell.

    Shift part-time cells to full-time permanent as needed.

    Use cultural engagement teams to partner with local communities exchanging stability/security/rule of law/medical/public health/technology/education in exchange for assistance with food/water/housing/language/culture/intelligence.

    Recruit indigenous military citizen-soldier units as part of compulsory service.

    Shift down from company to platoon centric doctrine as indigenous military citizen-soldier units come online and two way mentoring(Marines need old school mentoring as well) continues to mesh a Hi-Low force multiplied mix with the idea of using a platoon for every indigenous company equivalent.

    Military doctrine shifts from conventional Marine shock/assault/break-in operations to an Army SF/MARSOC FID/UW mission, which would take time to experiment/implement.

    Crawl, walk, run, fly.

    Crawl...conventional defensive honey badger for the initial "Where/When are we?"

    Walk....shift from conventional doctrine to 1 Marine platoon mentoring 1 indig company FID/UW mission

    Run.....shift to 1 Marine Section/Squad mentoring 1 indig company FID/UW mission

    Conflict avoidance wherever possible with the Empire.......delay and distract as much and as long as possible....offer to collaborate and cooperate with the Empire selectively(under the S2) as part of a deception plan.

    If attacked, draw enemy forces away from centre of gravity/main effort.

    Husband resources, build mentored indig capacity, refine FID/UW doctrine and TTPs, govern and administer well, and wait for the appropriate opportunities to present themselves.

    Long Term: 2+ years

    Fly......begin to fully integrate Marine and indig culture by founding a Marine Corps Basic Training Unit accepting indigs into it.

    Allow marriage.

    Pull some of the best indigs used so far and run them through Basic first to use as assistant instructors, as well as a few for INT/SF specialist training.

    Marines are not working to a stop watch counting down...but they are working to a CALENDER counting down.

    At best, they only have X many years to inculcate the very best(or worst) of their training/education/experience/historical lens/ethos to the indig population before their fragile and temporary critical mass faces osmosis and erases the opportunity to make a positive impact on long-term societal/technological development of humanity.

    All Marines get to vote after 20 years of honorable service..which begins a process towards democracy keeping the mental heavy lifting to senior officers and NCOs(acting in the best interest of the Marines under their respective command). It would also allow younger Marines the opportunity to vote after additional life experience and maturity, and a route for limited democratic voting by indigs.

    This would allow approx. 25 years for the original Marine unit to radically shape/alter history through 2000 years of collective accumulated human TTP knowledge the Marines brought with them until convergence with the indig culture really kicks in. Once that 25 years has been hit I'd want to have transitioned from benign military dictatorship to Constitution 2.0 and try to better ensure the framers' intent is understood with absolutely perfect clarity.

    Over time, and once the hybrid culture has set and hardened in the appropriate direction legislate that 20 years' honorable service down to 15, then 10, then 5.

    In terms of an epic showdown with the Empire......I'd still do absolutely everything humanly possibly to avoid/delay conflict.....even tow the Empire's line if necessary for a period to continue to husband resources, grow capacity, and hide vastly superior military capability through deception....delay, avoid, deny if necessary.

    Build an intelligence picture of enemy leadership disposition with and thru select trusted/trained indigs partnered with Marines in HUMINT and LRRP roles.

    Once sufficient military capacity has been developed(and the economic capacity to back it up as well) and a showdown is deemed necessary....go for the head...slaughter commanders on the battlefield with long range precision fire, demand immediate surrender and compliance or threaten extermination to major units using a carefully prepared HE demonstration/PsyOp....infil Marine/Indig teams into the capital(if strong central governance...if weak central governance, ignore for now) and provincial centres of gravity and decapitate all military/political leadership nodes with precision rifle fire, IEDs, asymmetric warfare.

    Precise shock and strictly husbanded awe.

    Seize/hold MSRs in the provincial regions adjacent to home loc as well as provincial centres of gravity and MSRs adjacent to capital.

    Quickly reform captured/surrendered/turned legions with Marine/indig liaison and push them back into the provincial centres of gravity to fill the leadership and governance void.

    Entice them by offering Legionnaires select grandfathered voting rights upon completing Marine conversion course as well as enticing the provinces with probationary Marine State/Republic membership.

    Seize enough provinces, by force if necessary, surrounding the capital and deny Rome freedom of movement/maneuver/communication. Deny capital food and water. Use an Iron Age version of Dresden/Hiroshima with husbanded firepower reserves to violently and decisively force unconditional surrender by burning all or part of Rome to the ground if necessary.

    And if you survive into the longer-term:

    Transform the Empire into a mesh of member states under a new Marine Republic governance model, with strong, inalienable states rights....and central government constitutionally limited to basic defense of the republic, judicial adherence of states to the constitution, convention of constitutional amendments, and negotiating standards of commercial practice between and amongst the member states...constitutional amendments to harshly punish political/economic corruption as well as compelling governance for the long-term and setting ceilings on taxation would be good.

    Encourage the acquisition, dissemination, and conservation of global knowledge bases as a main effort(Library of Alexandria for example) for member states. Because other than a very thin green vaneer of a War God.....all you've got is knowledge on how to replay a 2000 year old "mulligan".

    Encourage public health best practices and disease prevention as a main effort to avoid the dark ages.

    If you're not the globally dominant culture(politically/economically/militarily/educationally <---is that a word?) within 25 years and/or end of service life of major weapon systems and ammunition then the effort will fail to achieve escape velocity from human mediocrity....as your only remaining force multipliers are no longer god-like....they are superior knowledge, organization, law, motivation...which would take considerably more than 25 years to turn into a sustainable long-term competitive advantage.

    If you survive, set a 1000 year plan for Planet Marine, Marine Moon, Marine Mars, and Marine Alpa Centauri....and eat the 1000 year elephant( Plague, Germanic/Mongol/Muslim Hordes) one bite at a time.

    --------

    Interesting idea off the internet.....I wonder if the guy will run into potential crowdsource ownership/royalty claims?

    As a book it seems fine, but as a movie.....it sounds a bit like Red Storm Rising BC.....maybe way too big to do under a couple hundred million dollars, a cast of tens of thousands, and the need to borrow a real Marine battalion for filming.

  2. #227
    Peacemaker Zorro C9's Avatar
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    Mi Dio, Flagg, you need a hobby!

  3. #228
    Milo Drinker of Death Flagg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorro C9 View Post
    Mi Dio, Flagg, you need a hobby!
    I had to find a reason to avoid course study for an hour....plus I've been stuck on step 37 of my 72 step plan to take over the world...so it was a way to get the creative juices flowing.

  4. #229
    Peacemaker Zorro C9's Avatar
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    I know the feeling, that Cold War/China post I made a few days ago, while not as big as yours, was born of the same need.

  5. #230
    Senior Member miguelencanarias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by California Joe View Post
    Well based upon my extensive research on the posts of Hollywood Marine and from watching a few episodes of Spartacus on Starz I've come to the conclusion that within a half an hour most of the Marines would have stripped off the MARPAT, changed their names to things like Cunnilingus Maximus and Priapus Extremus, and would have taken up residence at the local whorehouse claiming to be Gods due to their ability ignite farts with a "Vulcan flame" and level a city block with a "Jupiter Stick"...
    How is this not in the Epic Posts thread yet? I almost shat myself in laughter. Priapus Extremus. I'm changing my name right now.

  6. #231
    Moderator James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordie View Post
    How many Classics and History Majors are in an MEU?
    There was me... I dropped out of college at the end of my sophomore year to enlist as an infantryman. Modern grunts are a pretty smart bunch. Maybe a little rough around the edges, but not dumb.

  7. #232
    Milo Drinker of Death Flagg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    There was me... I dropped out of college at the end of my sophomore year to enlist as an infantryman. Modern grunts are a pretty smart bunch. Maybe a little rough around the edges, but not dumb.
    +1000

    While a lot of the alpha nerd riflemen I've known may not stay in a rifle battalion forever, or even as long as their typical counterparts...I'd agree that there are heaps about.

    And I know reservists are a bit different too, but in the last few years I've had:

    junior doctor
    nurse
    ambulance officer
    engineers(mechanical, electrical, civil, aviation, communications)
    biotech PHD scientist
    farmers
    bookbinder
    carpenters/builders
    plumber
    electrician
    mathematician/actuarial science nerd
    lawyer

    We could field a decent "Airsoft ODA" with real weapons from current manning in my platoon

    And we've seen a good number go onto SF with an impressively high pass rate.

    We have one current history major student at the moment.

    I always get my back up when people perceive riflemen to be dumb grunts.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flagg View Post
    Here's how I'd crack the nut.

    Short term plan: Arrival to +30/60 days

    Where the F am I?!?! Maps......assuming I ain't got any......PRIORITY tasking down the track

    First tasking is a recce to find the best bit of open country, high ground dominant, easily defensible piece of dirt to set up a primary FOB and satellite/patrol FOBs.......in an area with secure water sources, food, and raw building materials(forestry).

    Second tasking is to seize said bit of dirt and build hasty defensive positions with an eye towards company centric defensive operations.

    Concurrent activity is to reach deep into my Marines service and civilian relevant skill and knowledge base to create the following part-time planning cells:

    Food Cell: Marines gotta eat, how do you feed them in the short-to-medium term? farm/fish/hunt/trap/scavenge

    Medical/Public Health/Hygiene/Water Cell: Run by unit medical officer and medics. Develop an acclimatization plan that rotates sub units through the local water while maintaining majority on purified water overwatch while cycling through. Develop a plan to maintain overall defensive security and freedom of movement/maneuver while also ensuring physical isolation of sub units for ease of quarantine due to unforeseen infectious disease. Treat the AO as a foreign planet.

    Communications Cell: Run by Sigs. Coms plan between sub-units in a world without modern wireless coms.

    Mapping/Topography Cell: Accurate maps are to be generated of the immediate AO using organic tools available. Laser range finders, optics, mil-dot reticles can be pulled from unit(s) in depth and used to develop workable surveying tools in conjunction with engineering cell. Long term plan is to develop topo maps of the regional AO.

    Engineering Master Cell: Short term planning includes semi-permanent housing, mobility, relevant defensive position construction, CQB weapons, energy conservation/generation, clothing, etc.

    Tactical Planning Cell: Run by the S3 and OCs. Adjust tactical doctrine to match time/space/threat. Dominate/shape the local AO. How to SURVIVE TO the medium/long-term.

    Training Cell: Run by training SNCOs. Everyone will have to retrain and multi-task...in both their primary MOS as well as secondary critical skillsets based on their prior experience/knowledge and needs of the unit. Everything from CQB and engineering through to anatomy/physiology and foreign language.

    Psych/Social Cell: You've gone back in time.....that's some heavy sh!t. Someone's got to figure out how to brew beer for the collective wake and build morale from there. Also, to better ensure the continued, and hopefully permanent, physical integrity of the unit.

    Historical Intelligence Cell: Run by the S2 shop. What happened back in the day and why? TEWTS OPFOR to ascertain tactical and strategic strengths/weaknesses. Since most INT will be HUMINT.....this cell would also develop a local language/cultural immersion program.

    Strategic Planning Master Cell: Run by the CO. Adjust strategic doctrine to time/space/threat. Dominate/shape the regional(global?) AO. Provide guidance to other planning cells to adjust for the longer term over time as required and tactical goals are achieved. How to THRIVE THRU the long-term.

    Medium Term Plan: 30/60 days to 1/2 years

    Recce for the best regional strategic base of operations, preferably a port and/or major MSR adjacent to open country, and defensible agriculture/water supply.

    Ask for, but if necessary, seize local control.

    Add permanent governance/administration/economic/local law enforcement master cell.

    Shift part-time cells to full-time permanent as needed.

    Use cultural engagement teams to partner with local communities exchanging stability/security/rule of law/medical/public health/technology/education in exchange for assistance with food/water/housing/language/culture/intelligence.

    Recruit indigenous military citizen-soldier units as part of compulsory service.

    Shift down from company to platoon centric doctrine as indigenous military citizen-soldier units come online and two way mentoring(Marines need old school mentoring as well) continues to mesh a Hi-Low force multiplied mix with the idea of using a platoon for every indigenous company equivalent.

    Military doctrine shifts from conventional Marine shock/assault/break-in operations to an Army SF/MARSOC FID/UW mission, which would take time to experiment/implement.

    Crawl, walk, run, fly.

    Crawl...conventional defensive honey badger for the initial "Where/When are we?"

    Walk....shift from conventional doctrine to 1 Marine platoon mentoring 1 indig company FID/UW mission

    Run.....shift to 1 Marine Section/Squad mentoring 1 indig company FID/UW mission

    Conflict avoidance wherever possible with the Empire.......delay and distract as much and as long as possible....offer to collaborate and cooperate with the Empire selectively(under the S2) as part of a deception plan.

    If attacked, draw enemy forces away from centre of gravity/main effort.

    Husband resources, build mentored indig capacity, refine FID/UW doctrine and TTPs, govern and administer well, and wait for the appropriate opportunities to present themselves.

    Long Term: 2+ years

    Fly......begin to fully integrate Marine and indig culture by founding a Marine Corps Basic Training Unit accepting indigs into it.

    Allow marriage.

    Pull some of the best indigs used so far and run them through Basic first to use as assistant instructors, as well as a few for INT/SF specialist training.

    Marines are not working to a stop watch counting down...but they are working to a CALENDER counting down.

    At best, they only have X many years to inculcate the very best(or worst) of their training/education/experience/historical lens/ethos to the indig population before their fragile and temporary critical mass faces osmosis and erases the opportunity to make a positive impact on long-term societal/technological development of humanity.

    All Marines get to vote after 20 years of honorable service..which begins a process towards democracy keeping the mental heavy lifting to senior officers and NCOs(acting in the best interest of the Marines under their respective command). It would also allow younger Marines the opportunity to vote after additional life experience and maturity, and a route for limited democratic voting by indigs.

    This would allow approx. 25 years for the original Marine unit to radically shape/alter history through 2000 years of collective accumulated human TTP knowledge the Marines brought with them until convergence with the indig culture really kicks in. Once that 25 years has been hit I'd want to have transitioned from benign military dictatorship to Constitution 2.0 and try to better ensure the framers' intent is understood with absolutely perfect clarity.

    Over time, and once the hybrid culture has set and hardened in the appropriate direction legislate that 20 years' honorable service down to 15, then 10, then 5.

    In terms of an epic showdown with the Empire......I'd still do absolutely everything humanly possibly to avoid/delay conflict.....even tow the Empire's line if necessary for a period to continue to husband resources, grow capacity, and hide vastly superior military capability through deception....delay, avoid, deny if necessary.

    Build an intelligence picture of enemy leadership disposition with and thru select trusted/trained indigs partnered with Marines in HUMINT and LRRP roles.

    Once sufficient military capacity has been developed(and the economic capacity to back it up as well) and a showdown is deemed necessary....go for the head...slaughter commanders on the battlefield with long range precision fire, demand immediate surrender and compliance or threaten extermination to major units using a carefully prepared HE demonstration/PsyOp....infil Marine/Indig teams into the capital(if strong central governance...if weak central governance, ignore for now) and provincial centres of gravity and decapitate all military/political leadership nodes with precision rifle fire, IEDs, asymmetric warfare.

    Precise shock and strictly husbanded awe.

    Seize/hold MSRs in the provincial regions adjacent to home loc as well as provincial centres of gravity and MSRs adjacent to capital.

    Quickly reform captured/surrendered/turned legions with Marine/indig liaison and push them back into the provincial centres of gravity to fill the leadership and governance void.

    Entice them by offering Legionnaires select grandfathered voting rights upon completing Marine conversion course as well as enticing the provinces with probationary Marine State/Republic membership.

    Seize enough provinces, by force if necessary, surrounding the capital and deny Rome freedom of movement/maneuver/communication. Deny capital food and water. Use an Iron Age version of Dresden/Hiroshima with husbanded firepower reserves to violently and decisively force unconditional surrender by burning all or part of Rome to the ground if necessary.

    And if you survive into the longer-term:

    Transform the Empire into a mesh of member states under a new Marine Republic governance model, with strong, inalienable states rights....and central government constitutionally limited to basic defense of the republic, judicial adherence of states to the constitution, convention of constitutional amendments, and negotiating standards of commercial practice between and amongst the member states...constitutional amendments to harshly punish political/economic corruption as well as compelling governance for the long-term and setting ceilings on taxation would be good.

    Encourage the acquisition, dissemination, and conservation of global knowledge bases as a main effort(Library of Alexandria for example) for member states. Because other than a very thin green vaneer of a War God.....all you've got is knowledge on how to replay a 2000 year old "mulligan".

    Encourage public health best practices and disease prevention as a main effort to avoid the dark ages.

    If you're not the globally dominant culture(politically/economically/militarily/educationally <---is that a word?) within 25 years and/or end of service life of major weapon systems and ammunition then the effort will fail to achieve escape velocity from human mediocrity....as your only remaining force multipliers are no longer god-like....they are superior knowledge, organization, law, motivation...which would take considerably more than 25 years to turn into a sustainable long-term competitive advantage.

    If you survive, set a 1000 year plan for Planet Marine, Marine Moon, Marine Mars, and Marine Alpa Centauri....and eat the 1000 year elephant( Plague, Germanic/Mongol/Muslim Hordes) one bite at a time.

    --------

    Interesting idea off the internet.....I wonder if the guy will run into potential crowdsource ownership/royalty claims?

    As a book it seems fine, but as a movie.....it sounds a bit like Red Storm Rising BC.....maybe way too big to do under a couple hundred million dollars, a cast of tens of thousands, and the need to borrow a real Marine battalion for filming.
    What about the slaves?

  9. #234
    Milo Drinker of Death Flagg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordie View Post
    What about the slaves?
    Give them a long-term path to citizenship, and a long-term path to voting, via X years of service to the Republic.

    No matter how distasteful it is, slavery would be a significant part of the economy.

    Getting rid of it overnight would be like trying to get rid of the petroleum economy overnight.

    Transition plan out of slavery over a long enough period so as to not start a war over it by disrupting the economy for/against certain sectors.

    Maybe a mandated transition from slavery to indentured servitude to freedom for Y years to offset the loss of capital/"property" to the slave "owners".

    Maybe lead by example and buy/free some.

    But I think you'd have to be careful in trying to affect too much change too quickly...we see how that works when we go jumping into the 3rd world today and enforcing women's rights on cultures that are unwilling to accept it immediately.

  10. #235
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    Ah Flagg hate to burst your bubble but a lot of what you suggested the the Romans were doing anyway..............


  11. #236
    Μολὼν λαβέ Hollis's Avatar
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    So............ There is this Marine in ancient Rome....... Having a glass of wine wondering what happened to everyone, except all the babes who are around him asking for a encore performance.


    So what is so hard to comprehend?

  12. #237
    Peacemaker Zorro C9's Avatar
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    Mostly the bit about an encore. And the staying bit.

  13. #238
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    Flagg,Slavery was the norm. Many were educated and ran businesses. Slavery was seen as getting a meal everyday. Otherwise, you would be lucky to be invited to a meal or provide for yourself. Patronage was a major source of income. A measure a success was the entourage you had. It was not uncommon for wealthy Romans to dole out money for the entourage.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorro C9 View Post
    Mostly the bit about an encore. And the staying bit.
    How about staying alive.Modern medicine wasn't around to treat VD.

  15. #240
    Bush Lawyer, that's me! TheKiwi's Avatar
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    From recollection Gonorrea wasn't around then, nor Syphillis, both were 800 - 1,200 years away.

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