Greeks with Goldman Sachs help lied........ but hey it's great we in the EU have such great politicians compared to US, we have had so much reform in the financial sector and new safeguards for democracy and too big to fail.Originally Posted by Ought Six
NOT.
But yeah take the easy way and introduce an austerity treaty BEFOERE any reform of what played a huge part in getting us here. Either implement tough regulations that banks must meet in order to get soverign protection, any banks which use risky products officially lose all taxpayer protection i.e the real insurer, the taxpayer is unwilling to offer insurance cover. Persons extending or requesting cover illegally - get the jail, 10 years minimum.
Faux insurance for banks to be banned, either swim naked or with the niqab.
At the rate things are going many soverign state are only going to be a husk that bankers suck the remaining slime out of. I'm not absolving Greece of it's responsibility for it's own unique problems, the ludicrous retirement ages and entitlements. A hard road ahead still for Greece.
Looks like EU (or rather the Germans) are playing hard ball. I agree with this, the Greek people have to face the reality of their financial situation.
Westerwelle's comments followed remarks by Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble, who appeared to suggest that the eurozone could cope if Greece left the 17-nation club.
Asked by the regional Rheinische Post daily whether the eurozone could withstand a Greek exit, the minister said: "Europe won't sink that easily."
"We want Greece to remain in the eurozone. But it also has to want this and to fulfil its obligations. We can't force anyone.
"We have learned a lot these past two years and have built protection mechanisms. The danger of contamination for other countries in the eurozone has become weaker and the eurozone as a whole has become more resistant."
"No-one is threatening anyone here," Schaeuble said in the interview. "But we must be honest... and tell our Greek friends and partners that there is no other way that the one that we have chosen together."
Earlier in the week, the eurozone announced it was blocking 1.0 billion euros ($1.3 billion) out of 5.2 billion euros in bailout loans for Greece until Monday amid uncertainty over the country's political future
The Greek People should form Fiscal Death Squads and Start counting windows. You have 12 windows or more in your house. Hand over the money.
Joke aside. They should clearly start to enforce the tax evasion. If the reality is even close to the 13 to 50 billion Euro in Fiscal Evasion then they might get back a substantial cash flow within a decade. And then there is the Church.
But anything like serious enforcement of taxes would just result in riots, like anything else coming NEAR meaningful or helpful change
It really is amazing to see Greece heading into self-destruct mode so quickly and willingly
Mhh...Politicians rioting?
They did bring this unto themselves when they had a debt/GDP ration of over 100% and they were invited/allowed to enter a monetary union with a hard currency. What responsibility falls on everyone else in the EU that was using the Euro to promote a political goal rather than economic prosperity?
Honestly, any German should just STFU about "bailing out" anyone on the European continent. Besides starting 2 world wars and genociding countless millions, Germany left the continent in utter destruction. And yet the rest of the world (including her victims) forgave (all or large portions of) her debts, provided financial assistance, provided military security, and/or sent cheap labor.Also pick up a history book and look that this thing is becoming a habbit for greece. And this is not the first time Germans had to bail their sorry arses out.
20th Century German defaults:
1932 defaults on own debt
1938 defaults on Austrian debt
1953 gets 70% "haircut" on debt
How many times does this statement need to be corrected?
The debt/GDP limit set for EMU members was 60%. Greece was asked and allowed to join while their official debt ratio (reported to OECD and Eurostat) was well above 100%.
Yes, there was a little "fudging" of the numbers, but nothing extraordinary.
http://www.greekembassy.org/embassy/...&article=14336
1997: 114.0 % of GDP instead of 108.2 %
1998: 112.4 % of GDP instead of 105.8 %
1999: 112.3 % of GDP instead of 105.2 %
With an EMU entry criteria of 60%, the Greeks were allowed to enter with a publicly disclosed debt of 105.2% of GDP. Yes, they did lie because the true figure was 112.3%! Do you think that would have made a difference?
You want to know something else as well? Prior to entering the EEC/EU in 1981 Greece had one of the lowest debt/GDP ratios (31.2%). After the first decade in the EU they were above 100%. Throw blame on the Greeks all you like, but the problem is endemic with the EU which is why so much ink is being thrown over this issue (which does not end with a single EMU or EU country).
Greece CHOSE to enter EMU and they CHOSE to spend like mad men and THEY CHOSE to emply a sh*t load of people in the public sector.
All this while Greece obviously could not sustain the increase in both wages and public sector employes .
So whatever the EU allowed the greek's CHOSE for themselves to do. So stop blaming other for the mountain of trouble at the doorstep and for the love of god act like mature people and accept your own stupidity and greedy nature.
Also one of the key problems with the numbers was thedramatic reduction of the DGP deficit that was reported in a wrong manner on pourpose for years. That means at least the politicians knew what was happening . And since the people there refused to use common sense and check the facts.....or take actions....
I've neither started or participated in two World Wars, nor in the genocide of millions or the destruction of the European continent, so you can kindly fvck off with your retarded argumentation that present-day Germans have no say in all matters bailing out, because you want me to be responsible for stuff that happened 70+ years ago on which I had zero influence.
Are you European?
It's debatable which European peoples CHOSE to enter the EU (Maastricht, Schengen, Dublin) or the EMU, and what coercion took place (from within the EU) to make that happen. That said, the Greeks have to pay for their mistake as do the other Europeans that wished to impose these agreements on member states.
The publicly disclosed debt/GDP ratio was over 105% when they were allowed into the EMU. Stupid on their part, equally stupid and other EMU-member part as well.All this while Greece obviously could not sustain the increase in both wages and public sector employes .
No, you seem to be blaming the Greeks for being one of the many coerced parties to have Maastricht, Schengen, Dublin, and EMU shoved down their throat. It's very easy for you to review what diplomatic measures were taken by the EU to coerce additional parties (like the UK, Denmark, etc.) to go along with their agenda. These individuals are EQUALLY guilty for the mess, which you seem to gloss over.So whatever the EU allowed the greek's CHOSE for themselves to do. So stop blaming other for the mountain of trouble at the doorstep and for the love of god act like mature people and accept your own stupidity and greedy nature.
Which part of Eurostat and EU bureaucrats knowing Greece did not qualify for EMU membership (a stated 105% debt, the real one being 112%, with 60% being the limit) don't you want to accept? Maybe you don't like the fact that prior to entering the EEC/EU (in 1981) the Greek debt was 31%? The EU bears much of the responsibility as the reckless socialist politicians of Greece.Also one of the key problems with the numbers was thedramatic reduction of the DGP deficit that was reported in a wrong manner on pourpose for years. That means at least the politicians knew what was happening . And since the people there refused to use common sense and check the facts.....or take actions....
For those that don't quite understand how the EU worked in the underdeveloped south/periphery of Europe:
The EU would fund close to 50% of infrastructure development costs. The rest of the tab would have to be picked up by the member-state government via loans or bonds (mostly secured by German or French banks), which could provide low rates due to the Euro-denomination and AAA government ratings. The more development funds secured, the more debt needed to be raised. To secure these development funds and loans, these periphery states would award a significant portion of the contracts to German and French private companies (bribing helping along). And everything progressed well as long as the gravy train was flowing. In the process however these member states were seeing inflation, amassed huge debt (private and/or government), and became uncompetitive. And then the bubble burst when they couldn't keep financing this process.
If that's your attitude, perhaps you should reign in comments like "And this is not the first time Germans had to bail their sorry arses out." Oddly you were silent about that aspect of history. Present Germans are responsible for their obligations (including servicing compensation) as much as Greeks (and other Europeans) are about servicing their own debt obligations. I don't see any Greek youth or private employee in here claiming he has no obligation to serve his country's debt because he's personally not responsible for it.
You're playing the Nazi card to gain a moral high-ground in this discussion, but I'm sorry for you, this shyte won't fly.
Come on guys, let's not open old wounds to justify issues of the present.
Did Germany ask that question when it borrowed 27 billion marks from American investors and paid only 19 billion in reparations?
Did Germany ask that question when war reparations were reduced from 32 billion to under 1 (not that it ever paid that back)?
Did Germany ask that question when it burned American investors by defaulting in 1932?
Did Germany ask that question when Americans had to defeat Hitler?
Did Germany ask that question when Americans had to defend Germany for over 50 years?
Did Germany ask that question when Americans rebuilt the country after WW2?
Did Germany ask that question when Americans agreed to a 70% haircut on German debt in 1953?
Do I need to keep going? Don't get on a soap box pretending your history is full of examples of principled financial behavior.
I'm not the one that claimed "And this is not the first time Germans had to bail their sorry arses out." If you want to talk about "ancient" history, then expect the unpaid debt from WW2 to come up. You can read into this thread to see who is focusing on post 1981 policies and who's making wholesale categorizations about entire nations.
Government (UK)plays down German claims that UK could help Greece.
German media say the country's finance minister wants the coalition to be part of a "clean-up fund".
But the prime minister's spokesman said it was up to "eurozone countries to support the eurozone".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18059355
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