The end a German war memorial?

[LineDoggie]

Interesting post.

About Soviet Union, more than 25 millions of Soviet citizens died after nazi Germany attacked the country to wage, according to Adolphe Hitler's words, a war of extermination. This fact has to be reminded, not to be forgotten. These monuments, such as the memorial at Treptow Park in Berlin or elsewhere in Germany (in the former GDR), were made less to humiliate defeated Germany than to honour the fallen Soviet soldiers, who were there very often burried in mass graves To call them "things" simply display how little respectful you are towards thre memory of these soldiers who helped to liberate Europe from Hitler's tyranny. By writing Europe, I also think about Germany. So, if you can live, read and write freely on this forum, it is thanks to their sacrifice, wether you want it or not, wether you are German or not.

Attachment 179383
Treptow Park


Let's write now about this monument in Sedan. The most important is the respect due to these fallen soldiers (by the way, I am French and I considere that fallen German soldiers have to be respected - not to be confused with those SS butchers who enjoyed burning villages and their inhabitants alive such as in Oradour sur Glane (France) or Khatyn (Bielorussia), to name but a few places).
Now, this monument was erected by Germany on the territory of France. In the area where I am currently living (Lorraine), there are still many German monuments or cemeteries dating back to the Franco-Prussian war or to the 1st world war (not to mention Normandy with huge WW2 military cemeteries). These are usually cleaned, kept up and sometimes restored by the Germans, who specially and officially put both federal budget money and people for this. And you can be sure that there are still a lot of German military monuments abroad, whatever you may write.
So, it is not France's obligation and responsability neither to put its money to restore it or to demolish it (although its state makes it hazardous to the public). This has to be carried out by Germany since it was built by Kaiser's Germany for fallen German soldiers. Just a matter of common sense a child would easily understand.
Also, don't forget that three times German soldiers came to Sedan, rather with unfriendly thoughts in 1870, 1914 and 1940. After all, again, why should France deal money to honore invading ennemy troops ? I think such a monument is definitely not welcome on our soil. But maybe is it an attempt from Germany not willing to meet the costs of its History ?
The French may forgive. They don't forget. Especially in the North and in the East of France.

Katyn was a Soviet NKVD crime, not nazis

EDIT: Found out wrong Massacre My Fault for not checking first.

[Pandemonium]

Interesting post.

So, it is not France's obligation and responsability neither to put its money to restore it or to demolish it (although its state makes it hazardous to the public). This has to be carried out by Germany since it was built by Kaiser's Germany for fallen German soldiers. Just a matter of common sense a child would easily understand.
Also, don't forget that three times German soldiers came to Sedan, rather with unfriendly thoughts in 1870, 1914 and 1940. After all, again, why should France deal money to honore invading ennemy troops ? I think such a monument is definitely not welcome on our soil. But maybe is it an attempt from Germany not willing to meet the costs of its History ?
The French may forgive. They don't forget. Especially in the North and in the East of France.

It all comes down to who the owner is the Versailles treaty determined the "graves" should be respected and taken care of, this happened on most German cemetries in France, though there have been several examples where this did not happen. This graveyard was one of those examples (see pic), after the war the German government had no monetairy means for the upkeep of these place so they depended on the goodwill of the local governments. Somewhere between 1918 and the 1920's the German bodies were removed and brought to another cemetry this was done by the French government. During WWII the monument was restored by the Nazi's (this is an answer to an earlier discussion about Swastika's) and victems from the 1940 campaign were buried here. After the war once again the graves were removed.

As for the discussion on who should restore it or restaurate it, after the first world war this particular monument became a property of the city of Sedan. The German government has no say in its future nor can it pay for the restaurations or upkeep.

I believe it is not because it is a monument that is honering "invading enemy troops", like you claim, that it deserves to be saved but as a landmark in France for the future generations as a constant reminder of what happened over there 100 years ago without making a difference on who initially build it

[Tyon]

Katyn was a Soviet NKVD crime, not nazis

Khatyn and Katyn were two seperate massacres.

[Nyusu]

I believe it is not because it is a monument that is honering "invading enemy troops", like you claim, that it deserves to be saved but as a landmark in France for the future generations as a constant reminder of what happened over there 100 years ago without making a difference on who initially build it

Thing is that it just plain simply cannot be saved anymore. You can see its state on the pictures. For whatever reason it wasnt been kept up in good condition and now its beyond saving. You have to demolish it now, as its can drop on your head at every moment. Rebuilding it isnt an option, as that would cost way too much and i doubt that they have such money to spend on it.

Btw. seeing its current state i wounder why they havent demolished it year ago already.

[Ryurik]

Katyn was a Soviet NKVD crime, not nazis

Khatyn was a small Bielorussian village destroyed in the spring of 1943. As Tyon quoted, Khatyn and Katyn are two separate massacres.

use the following link :

http://khatyn.by/en/tragedy/

[CJvR]

To call them "things" simply display how little respectful you are towards thre memory of these soldiers who helped to liberate Europe from Hitler's tyranny. By writing Europe, I also think about Germany. So, if you can live, read and write freely on this forum, it is thanks to their sacrifice, wether you want it or not, wether you are German or not.

Minor correction, the Red Army never "Liberated" anyone. At best it replaced one brutal totalitarian terror with another brutal totalitarian terror. I view the Soviet monuments with the hammer and sickle in the same manner I view Nazi monuments with the swastika - if any had remained. While it might officially be to the Red Army fallen (in which case it would have made far more sense to build them back in the SU where the troops had come from) in reality it is hard to see it as anything other than Stalin's F-U to Germany.

As for the Sedan thing. Since the cemetery have been moved and the thing is about to fall down anyway I see no problem with giving it a nudge so it drops in a controlled manner.

[Ryurik]

Minor correction, the Red Army never "Liberated" anyone. At best it replaced one brutal totalitarian terror with another brutal totalitarian terror. I view the Soviet monuments with the hammer and sickle in the same manner I view Nazi monuments with the swastika - if any had remained.

Hitler's forces came to the Soviet Union to exterminate people or to turn them into slaves, at best. The Soviet Army liberated its territory and other countries.
You have your opinion, I have mine.

[KoTeMoRe]

Katyn was a Soviet NKVD crime, not nazis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatyn_massacre

[CJvR]

Hitler's forces came to the Soviet Union to exterminate people or to turn them into slaves, at best.

That they had in common with the Soviet regime.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

Agreed.

[Nyusu]

That they had in common with the Soviet regime.Agreed.

Sovjets came to exterminate and turn people into slaves? What drugs do you take?

[LineDoggie]

Khatyn and Katyn were two seperate massacres.

Thanks for the correction, thought it was just a spelling variation.

[Rosbach]

list of German cemetries worldwide
http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaetten.html
(even of Jamaika, Kanada, Trididad...)

[Atlantic Friend]

In its current state, and since the remains of the soldiers have already been moved, it's probably best to destroy what remains of it. Frankly, in its current state, it belittles what it was supposed to glorify.

Perhaps it could be replaced by a smaller commemorative monument (since this is no longer a war cemetery)?

[KurtyKat]

I think if possible the memorial should be paid for by Germany and kept in shape/restaurated. With a new green/socialist government for Germany on the horizon I don´t see that happening, though....

[Tyon]

I think if possible the memorial should be paid for by Germany and kept in shape/restaurated. With a new green/socialist government for Germany on the horizon I don´t see that happening, though....

You must be talking about a different germany than the usual one.

Emnid 20.05.2012

CDU: 35 %
SPD: 27 %
Grüne: 12 %
FDP: 5 %
SED: 6 %
Piraten: 11 %

There will be no coalition between the SPD and Greens. They simply wont have enough votes next year.
Also dont call the SPD socialist... seriously dont do that.


Also considering how many CDU led governments there have been the memorial still fell into ruin.