Defiant Message From Greece

[KoTeMoRe]

You are trying to make it sound as if it happens in almost all companies and is a normal legal thing. Which it isnt. It one thing to work overtime to meet deadlines. It other thing to do daily unpaid overtime.

It is common place. As even the greatest do it. Hint France Telecom.

[KoTeMoRe]

So you now want to qualify everything since you dont like the answer? you've added so much to this thread as well.
Ta

Listen frankly I could do less without your continuous off topic flame baiting. You already were told by Greek Members that your input generally in the matter was at best "shortsighted" (although I have a farily different word for it). In thee incurring exchange between me and Nyusu, we were talking about Greece and Europe in general having a lot of issues with Private employment. While he is fully right on the fact that OT without retribution is ILLEGAL (although on a straw argument I can find possibilities that can legally allow unpaid OT, because they do exist) IT HAPPENS nonetheless. And far more than one might think.

Now which part of that debate, included the US in general? Thank you for input.

[Al-Bundy]

In times like this is the era of pseudo-Messiahs to pop up.
Time will tell if Tsipras is one of them.
I remember very well the Albanian "mesiah" Berisha which brought the 1997.
And yet people vote for him.
Greece in that aspect is not very different.
It is sad.

[LineDoggie]

Mickey are you not literate in French? Most French Corporations have had deep changes in their HR practices from 2000 on. That has included in most cases a raise in overtime, unpaid or calculated in phantasmagorical way.

France Telecom was a case of burn outs gone awry...the most shining symptomatic thing to befell the new management style in France. That involved pressing employees to meet targets or go bust. Another effect of Privatizations in France.

Anyway not that you would understand a damn thing Mickey Mouse, you are from the Land Of Dreams. Mister 10000% in 20 years Greek Inflation.

What part of the Debate is this answer? is this not flamebaiting and offtopic? or doesn that only get decided by you? Isnt english the langauge of this board?

[KoTeMoRe]

What part of the Debate is this answer? is this not flamebaiting and offtopic? or doesn that only get decided by you? Isnt english the langauge of this board?

Weren't you dissing some Swiss member about some timeline yesterday? I really wonder sometime if you look yourself in the mirror at any point of the day?

That reply was to this question :

And what this scandal has to do with the "unpaid overtime hours" thing?

That question arose when DS73, who claimed that if I was a lawyer, largo sensu, he was Mickey Mouse. Well since I indeed deal with law, he is, fatally, Big Eared Mickey Mike. Therefore I adressed him his hymn. Mickey Mouse's Clubhouse song.

Then Mickey went on to rant about, I quote him,

any of the sh&t

I had written in the following post.

What any of the sh&t you've wrote relates to the France Telecom scandal? Which "targets" are you talking about?
Mister out of mark. You really have no idea about anything you write about.

FT wanted to fire huge percentage of employees, being a (partially) public company they had problem with it, so they use classical way of pushing people out by relocating and assigning new jobs. To make people to leave "voluntary"
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/...fr0911029i.htm
"..Stress-based management held responsible

The pressure exerted on employees at France Télécom has been denounced as ‘stress-based management’. In recent years, the group has undergone a series of rapid changes due to technological developments; for instance, information and communication technologies (ICT), including the advance in broadband transmission, have evolved in record times and imposed a major redeployment and retraining of the group’s employees. In addition, management implemented a new obligation to mobility policy, which sets out that workers should frequently change both their employment position and location. A plan, entitled ‘Time to move’, explicitly aimed to organise permanent mobility among the company’s workforce. The ‘Time to move’ plan was associated with a plan for 22,000 voluntary departures, given that the public company was not authorised to make its staff with civil service status redundant. Regarding this reorganisation plan, undesired mobility was suspected to serve as a means to meet the company’s objective for reducing its workforce, by pushing out in particular those with civil service status.

..."

Now me being fairly informed about French matters in general, went on to prove his highness he was wrong. By posting the specific exerpt of judgment issued by the French Cassation Court.

As far as I am aware, the legal language in France being French, the sentence was well...in French. The excerpt being fairly descriptive of the pressure the France Telecom employees' had to endure, it was a conclusive and definitive proof that the France Telecom scandal was a telling example of the General abuse of workers regarding productivity margins and targets. And that Mickey Mouse can't speak or read French. But that was a given.

Which, all things being equal, was the challenge issued by Mickey Mike to me.

Dots, links, big picture.

[DS73]

Exactly what I thought...You can't read French.

Thank you Mickey.



Do you know the Hot Dog song, Mickey?

I think you have problem with french here. "l'obligation d'effectuer de façon quasi permanente des heures supplémentaires," is not the same as initial claim "l'obligation d'effectuer des heures supplémentaires non payées" (the phrase which btw. existed in initial text). I am really puzzled how lazy and so noisy at the same time one can be.

[DS73]

It is common place. As even the greatest do it. Hint France Telecom.

Common? O'really?
There is no need to speculate: Dares made relevant inquiry in 2005.
The question "Vous arrive t-il de travailler au dela de l'horaire prevu sans qu'il y ait de compensation en salaire ou en repos"(attention to the last word)
Have you worked supplementary hours without payment or rest?
From 22000 questioned: 6.7% always, 12.4% regularly, 24.2% sometimes, 56.7% never.
This topic is hot and is beaten to death. There is plenty reasearch done. It's quite reasonable to assume that among these 6.7% the majority are managers and self employed. Among 12.4% the majority are people who have irregular "task-time" jobs (like medical specialists, or service engineers, hotel workers). 24.2% are service dudes and the most workers of huge companies fell in the last batch. Not because big guys are more human but because such companies have strong union representation.
As usually way out of mark

[KoTeMoRe]

I think you have problem with french here. "l'obligation d'effectuer de façon quasi permanente des heures supplémentaires," is not the same as initial claim "l'obligation d'effectuer des heures supplémentaires non payées" (the phrase which btw. existed in initial text). I am really puzzled how lazy and so noisy at the same time one can be.

... I love your way of backpedaling. I have no issues with French, to the contrary. But obvisously you ignoring the very core of the FT scandal and giving me some bullcrap article over a stress based management program, when the goal was to get rid of employees (which btw is was the real goal inspired by the Enron Rank and Yank). But hey...I do not even need to talk about this with you. You have been found in baseline bull****ing a couple of times now (10K% Greek inflation, you having big round ears). Worse in your own quote, you try to move around numbers, well the overall percentage of people that have worked without retribution overtime, in absolute terms is and I am about to teach you basic math here:

6.7% always + 12.4% regularly + 24.2% sometimes = 43.3%

So basically it is common AND obviously an issue.

Now you assume? Well you were not assuming here were you?

And what this scandal has to do with the "unpaid overtime hours" thing?

That question arose when DS73, who claimed that if I was a lawyer, largo sensu, he was Mickey Mouse. Well since I indeed deal with law, he is, fatally, Big Eared Mickey Mike. Therefore I adressed him his hymn. Mickey Mouse's Clubhouse song.

Then Mickey went on to rant about, I quote him,

any of the sh&t

I had written in the following post.

What any of the sh&t you've wrote relates to the France Telecom scandal? Which "targets" are you talking about?
Mister out of mark. You really have no idea about anything you write about.

FT wanted to fire huge percentage of employees, being a (partially) public company they had problem with it, so they use classical way of pushing people out by relocating and assigning new jobs. To make people to leave "voluntary"
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/...fr0911029i.htm
"..Stress-based management held responsible

The pressure exerted on employees at France Télécom has been denounced as ‘stress-based management’. In recent years, the group has undergone a series of rapid changes due to technological developments; for instance, information and communication technologies (ICT), including the advance in broadband transmission, have evolved in record times and imposed a major redeployment and retraining of the group’s employees. In addition, management implemented a new obligation to mobility policy, which sets out that workers should frequently change both their employment position and location. A plan, entitled ‘Time to move’, explicitly aimed to organise permanent mobility among the company’s workforce. The ‘Time to move’ plan was associated with a plan for 22,000 voluntary departures, given that the public company was not authorised to make its staff with civil service status redundant. Regarding this reorganisation plan, undesired mobility was suspected to serve as a means to meet the company’s objective for reducing its workforce, by pushing out in particular those with civil service status.

..."

Now sing in choir:

Hot dog, hot dog, hot diggety dog
Now we got ears, it's time for cheers

[KoTeMoRe]

Double tap

[L-107]

The thing about people recieveing "incentives" to leave the job as in quit the job is well known across some parts of europe.

Do not know about FT but i do know about impossible and unreasonable targets being presented . Now if said targets were not achieved and even surpassed as was "encouraged" you could expect to said branch to recieve penalties and not only the branch but also the workers were left without certain hours unpaid or in the case of weekend or holliday hours worked unpdaid or partially paid.

Also the workplace became a constant place of scrutiny with ever more ridiculous demands that had no basis in real life practice but were sound on paper.

You can not imagine the stress and pressure the manager of the brach company and its employes can be subjected to.


A simple example would be my own.

Because of the infernal pace at which we had to work part of the paperwork that was supposed to be filed by the end of the day had to be completed late, as in instead of me being up to date on my notes i had to continue work since i could not stop every time and complete the papers each time a customer was served.

The management knew this because this was a common situation and paperwork was 80% of the time filed in about half an hour after the shift ended.


Nevertheless in the same day me and my coworkers were cheked on the paperwork no less then 7 times before we started to lag behind.

This resulted in a 30% pay cut and a further 10% every month for 3 month's because this was considered a grave missconduct.

At the same time i was deducted a further 5% pay because the recordings showed a customer had to way 4 minutes for what he wanted . I was busy writing down the paperwork after the previous 5 customers.

This is a common practice as i said and me and a few other were encouranged to seek other employment places when we objected to this penalty sistem and the way it was enfourced.

"These are the rules if you dont like it you are free to sign in your resignation. Nobody is keeping you"


Mind you that the said company does not fire people . Well almost never. However people tend to leave for some misterious reasons.


We adressed the union representative about this. 2 week's later we had no less then 3 inspectors from the parent company come in and in just 5 minutes they saw 6 distinct cases in which customers were not taken care of properly. The penalties were severe.

We later proved with recording that they were wrong and things did not happen as they described them being taken out of context.

To this day the penalties have not been reversed or any sort of apology made.

So basicly what i am attempting to say is that i can understand the thing about the being persuaded to leave thing.

It's common to at least 2 large companies in europe. Im talking multibillioneuro companies.

[KoTeMoRe]

DisneyLand Paris working conditions maybe?

[L-107]

DisneyLand Paris working conditions maybe?

Dont know about the conditions there . But do know about other places.

[KoTeMoRe]

Dont know about the conditions there . But do know about other places.

No it was no meant to offend or demean you. If I sounded that way I appologize. Just offering another subject of interest regarding working conditions in Private Businesses to our resident Mickey Mike.

[L-107]

I wasnt offended or anything. Its cool.

This particular company or rather parent company and subsidiary happen to be 2 of the biggest in the business. Anyhow....since unions are pretty much useless in some parts of the EU and real pain in the neck for private business elsewere i vote we get working people to represent us.