BAE Systems T26 proposal rejected for Turkey's TF-2000 Frigates

[cabatli_53]

Lockheed Martin is the only serious contender left for Turkeys naval frigate project after the Turkish navy rejected BAE Systems proposal. The project, however, could still be shelved for technical reasons

U.S. defense industry giant Lockheed Martin has been left as the only bidder in the $3 billion project for the joint manufacture of six frigates for the Turkish navy after Ankara rejected the remaining contender BAE Systems proposal.

The project, however, may still not be awarded to Lockheed Martin if an agreement cannot be reached on the technical aspects of missile integration. Such an eventuality would cause the project to be shelved and then reshaped.

The long-delayed project envisions the TF-2000 frigate as a regional anti-air warfare vessel that would respond to aerial threats and also provide support functions such as command control, communication, reconnaissance and early warning. It would be bigger, heavier and more efficient in terms of war capacity than the vessels the navy has today.

The Defense Ministry last month sent a letter informing their British counterparts that Turkey was no longer interested in BAE Systems offer, an official familiar with the tender told the Hürriyet Daily News.

BAE is currently working on a new type of frigate, Type 26, which is internationally known as the Global Combat Ship (GCS). BAE has already started the project. It was late to join. Our needs would have increased the cost. Or we would have had to review our requirements in accordance with the British Navy, but our requirements are different. BAE had also asked for a license fee. The partnership offer would have become a model in which Turkey was financing BAEs project, the source told the Daily News.

Turkeys defense procurement agency, the Undersecretary of Defense Industries (SSM), has come close to formally selecting Lockheed Martin, but it needs to hear the Turkish Navys decision on the choice of missile systems, which is the most critical part of the project. The ship will be designed according to the missile systems, because of their enormous weight.

Missile issue
Selecting the Lockheed SM2 missile system would simplify everything, as it is not heavy. The SM3 system would mean more negotiations on many aspects. It has a wider range, which means that the system would overlap with some of the Air Forces air defense duty. Missile integration is another subject to be solved.

Lockheed uses AN/SPY1 radar, while Turkish company Aselsan has started working on a smaller system called Multifunctional Phased Array Radar project (ÇAFRAD). Lockheed Martin has a Ship Integrated War Administration System called Aegis, which includes the AN/SPY1 radar, but Turkish Havelsan has already manufactured a smaller version called Genesis. Turkey wants ÇAFRAD to be inserted into AN/SPY1, Genesis to replace Aegis, and this combination to be integrated with the SM3 system.

If the two sides fail to resolve the missile integration question, then a second option will be considered. Turkey has successfully manufactured a corvette under the so-called Milgem project.

Milgem would be re-designed to manufacture a light frigate for air defense warfare and would be named TF100. We have to develop something based on Milgem or we will waste all our know-how, an industry source said.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/loc...&NewsCatID=345

[cabatli_53]

The LockhedMartin mentioned in source as likely program partner is about missile package (SM-2,SM-3) to be integrated on Turkey's TF-2000 design. It has already been known that Turkey's Armerkom along with Turkish Navy officials have already commenced design phrase of TF-2000 and strongly rejected joining a foreign warship program and According to them, The ship to be constructed will be around 6500-7000dwt.

and According to source, TF-100 frigate program will be bigger, wider modified version of national corvette Milgem.
If USA accept integration of their interceptor missiles (SM-2/3) into a foreign Combat management system (Havelsan Genesis) + Long range Radar (Aselsan CAFRAD), Then the main weapon/strategic payloads of Turkish new warship programs will be as following;


-4+2 TF-2000 AAW Frigate (6500-7000dwt)
*Aselsan CAFRAD Phased Array main mast radar
*Havelsan Genesis Advent Combat management system
*Raytheon SM-2/3 Long range Interceptors
*Aselsan/Roketsan Low/Medium Altitude VLM
*Roketsan ATMACA Anti-Shipping Missile
*Roketsan AKYA Torpedos
*Tubitak SAGE Naval SOM VL Cruise Missile batteries (?)

-4 TF-100 Multi-Purpose Frigate (4000-4500dwt)
*Aselsan modified CAFRAD Phased Array main mast radar
*Havelsan Genesis Advent Combat management system
*Raytheon ESSM/SM-2 Interceptors
*Aselsan/Roketsan Low/Medium Altitude VLM
*Roketsan ATMACA Anti-Shipping Missile
*Roketsan AKYA Torpedos
*Tubitak SAGE Naval SOM VL Cruise Missile batteries (?)


-8+(4) Milgem/Milgem-S (2500-3000dwt)
*Aselsan produced Smart-S with dmestic T/R modules
*Havelsan Genesis Advent Combat management system
*Raytheon ESSM + RAM missiles
*Aselsan/Roketsan Low/Medium Altitude VLM (In following productions)
*Roketsan ATMACA Anti-Shipping Missile (In following productions as replacement of Harpoon SSM)
*Roketsan AKYA Torpedos (In following productions)

Milgem

[Ought Six]

Turkey's decade of amazing economic growth has come to a close, and the budgets for such ambitious projects are just not going to be sustainable. That is, unless Erdogan and AKP take Turkey down the ruinous path of massive borrowing to pay for this and other 'national pride' projects.

[TT1]

Turkey's decade of amazing economic growth has come to a close, and the budgets for such ambitious projects are just not going to be sustainable. That is, unless Erdogan and AKP take Turkey down the ruinous path of massive borrowing to pay for this and other 'national pride' projects.

Come on man, no need to cry. You might have such projects too someday

[muttbutt]

Come on man, no need to cry. You might have such projects too someday

He's American...they have the odd few CVN's to make themselves feel good.

[TT1]

He's American...they have the odd few CVN's to make themselves feel good.

Apparently they are not good enough for him since the Turkish projects made him jealous
If my sarcasm still did not go through; I thought it was pretty lame of him - as a user with almost 6k posts - to call them "national pride projects", since it's much more than just pride behind them.

[Ought Six]

Apparently they are not good enough for him since the Turkish projects made him jealous
If my sarcasm still did not go through; I thought it was pretty lame of him - as a user with almost 6k posts - to call them "national pride projects", since it's much more than just pride behind them.

What is behind them is Erdogan's attempt to make Turkey the dominant power in the region, whether the nation can afford it or not. So yes, 'national pride' is quite an accurate description. You cannot be even a regional superpower without a big military. That plan is not going so well lately, as Turkey's economy is stalling, and Erdogan's diplomatic efforts to make Turkey a central player in the politics of the Muslim world have flopped badly. But if you want to focus in on that passing comment and blow it up into a separate discussion, this thread is not the place to do that.

[TT1]

What is behind them is Erdogan's attempt to...

Stopped reading there. Oh man this Erdogan really makes you feel uncomfortable
Hint: do some research on when the majority of the currently on-going projects actually started.
Hint2: It might been before the 2002 elections...

[Ought Six]

Stopped reading there. Oh man this Erdogan really makes you feel uncomfortable

Hint: do some research on when the majority of the currently on-going projects actually started.
Hint2: It might been before the 2002 elections...

Hint: the subject of this thread is new frigates.

TF-2000: Orginal proposal for a similar ship scrapped in the late 1990s. Plans for the TF-2000 submitted in 2006, approved 5 Dec. 2007

The TF-100 and Milgem corvettes are appropriate ships for a nation of Turkey's size and budget. Several expensive new 6500 ton destroyers.... er, 'frigates', are not. They are in the preliminary engineering study phase now. I am betting that their keels will never be laid due to economic realities.

[TT1]

...
TF-2000: Orginal proposal for a similar ship scrapped in the late 1990s. Plans for the TF-2000 submitted in 2006, approved 5 Dec. 2007
...

It was delayed due to economic and humanitarian (earthquake) crises.
The primary plan was to put them to sail in approx 2008 but as I just said they eventually got off-set.

...
The TF-100 and Milgem corvettes are appropriate ships for a nation of Turkey's size and budget. Several expensive new 6500 ton destroyers.... er, 'frigates', are not. I am betting that their keels will never be laid due to economic realities.

I tend to trust the Turkish MoD about the needs and capabilities of Turkey more than I would trust someone who didn't even know certain things behind the project until I revealed them to him, sorry


So, lets leave this behind and stay on-topic. Preferably without ignorant and wild opinions/guesses.

[mokokko]

T That is, unless Erdogan and AKP take Turkey down the ruinous path of massive borrowing to pay for this and other 'national pride' projects.

Actually massive description is a truth. But a necessary truth. 15 years ago almost all kind of equipments were second hand and transfered old ones. . Ships subs fighters helicopters APCs tanks trucks jeeps guns SPGHs etc . Most of them have comsumpted their utility life before transfers.

EG:Last NIKE HERCULES retired just a couple of years ago. M-48 tanks m-101 m107 m110 guns are still active . Willys jeeps , MAN 630 m35 trucks can be seen different units.
So massive defence purchases have been halted for several years coz serious eceonmic reasons. Now economy is better than past and fiscal indicators let the new defence programs.

[Ought Six]

It was delayed due to economic and humanitarian (earthquake) crises. The primary plan was to put them to sail in approx 2008 but as I just said they eventually got off-set. I tend to trust the Turkish MoD about the needs and capabilities of Turkey more than I would trust someone who didn't even know certain things behind the project until I revealed them to him, sorry So, lets leave this behind and stay on-topic. Preferably without ignorant and wild opinions/guesses.

So the MoD makes plans without the direction and approval of Erdogan? But pointing out who really makes these decisions is "ignorant" and "wild guesses". Whatever you say.

The TF-2000s are still never going to be built. The global economy is headed down the crapper, and everyone is cutting their military budgets. Such an expensive and unnecessary project is extremely unlikely to survive.

[cabatli_53]

What is behind them is Erdogan's attempt to make Turkey the dominant power in the region, whether the nation can afford it or not. So yes, 'national pride' is quite an accurate description. You cannot be even a regional superpower without a big military. That plan is not going so well lately, as Turkey's economy is stalling, and Erdogan's diplomatic efforts to make Turkey a central player in the politics of the Muslim world have flopped badly. But if you want to focus in on that passing comment and blow it up into a separate discussion, this thread is not the place to do that.

Neither development idea of a national corvette called Milgem, nor a Frigate/Destroyer mixture platform called TF-2000 have nothing to do with Erdogan policies. The project called TF-2000 was commenced way before than today but Cause of economical troubles Turkey falled in 2000's, The project had to be cancelled. At present, TF-2000 AAW Program with same code-name commenced again with a different project model along with technological development of Turkish defence industry.

[TT1]

So the MoD makes plans without the direction and approval of Erdogan? But pointing out who really makes these decisions is "ignorant" and "wild guesses". Whatever you say.

...

Are you drunk or do you just not care to read what people answers to the BS you throw out of yourself?

The man named Recep Tayip Erdogan who you are obsessed with DID NOT even become a PM before 2003!
Thus, he had no say regarding the MoD's decisions at that time.

...


The TF-2000s are still never going to be built. The global economy is headed down the crapper, and everyone is cutting their military budgets. Such an expensive and unnecessary project is extremely unlikely to survive.

OK, if that is what you believe. I'm shocked that those 3 sentences didn't mention the CURRENT Turkish PM.

Neither development idea of a national corvette called Milgem, nor a Frigate/Destroyer mixture platform called TF-2000 have nothing to do with Erdogan policies. The project called TF-2000 was commenced way before than today but Cause of economical troubles Turkey falled in 2000's, The project had to be cancelled. At present, TF-2000 AAW Program with same code-name commenced again with a different project model along with technological development of Turkish defence industry.

I've tried man, but he won't allow anything enter his mind if it doesn't have to do with Erdogan...

[Ought Six]

Neither development idea of a national corvette called Milgem.....

I already said I was referring to the TF-2000. Try to keep up.
----------

.... nor a Frigate/Destroyer mixture platform called TF-2000 have nothing to do with Erdogan policies.

Erdogan wants Turkey to be the dominant player in the region. A more powerful military with bigger ships is absolutely part of that plan.
----------

The project called TF-2000 was commenced way before than today but Cause of economical troubles Turkey falled in 2000's, The project had to be cancelled.

Precisely. It was *cancelled*, scrapped, not "delayed" as previously claimed. Thank you for confirming that. Erdogan and the AKP again started a program for an expensive, unneeded high-tech destroyer (let us dispense with the 'frigate' nonsense) for the reasons I stated.
----------

At present, TF-2000 AAW Program with same code-name commenced again with a different project model along with technological development of Turkish defence industry.

Exactly. Using the old "TF-2000" designation was a political ploy to falsely pretend it is not really an all-new project, which it obviously is. Again, thank you for confirming that.