Greeks embrace some new myths about life with the euro

[joka]

I did not misconstrue anything. I think most people realise when they don't have a penny in their bank account. Portillo's documentary was primarily about the solution to the problem.

Why don't you have another look at that video and tell me which lawyers, electricians and economists he talks to are in denial.

That metal worker who thinks he can get a salary of 1500-2000€ is in denial, I'll agree with that. And the people voting for Syriza, they're in denial.

[valtrex]

Why don't you have another look at that video and tell me which lawyers, electricians and economists he talks to are in denial.

That metal worker who thinks he can get a salary of 1500-2000€ is in denial, I'll agree with that. And the people voting for Syriza, they're in denial.

They were not simple metal workers, they worked at the largest Greek ship repair industry of Perama; there were 6000 workers working there and with the cuts the personnel (skilled workers) has now reduced to 200; 5800 people became unemployed. The man doesn't want a 1500-2000 €, he complaints about the loss of 75% of his monthly income, he now earns 500-600 €.

Greeks are in denial? You are talking about people here, not some abstract fiscal figures, numbers represent people, families who have programmed their lives and lived according to a stable budget, have suddenly experienced cuts of 35-70%; you can't just cut off 70% of a family's monthly income just because according to some bureaucrat's view in Berlin, Strasbourg or Brussels, low salaries bring competitiveness, if that was true then the most competitive country in the world would be Bangladesh.
Austerity without parallel growth never worked and it won't work. I'm sorry we don't want to become a European Bangladesh

[joka]

Greeks are in denial? You are talking about people here, not some abstract fiscal figures, numbers represent people, families who have programmed their lives and lived according to a stable budget, have suddenly experienced cuts of 35-70%; you can't just cut off 70% of a family's monthly income just because according to some bureaucrat's view in Berlin, Strasbourg or Brussels, low salaries bring competitiveness, if that was true then the most competitive country in the world would be Bangladesh.
Austerity without parallel growth never worked and it won't work. I'm sorry we don't want to become a European Bangladesh

I said the people voting for Syriza are in denial, at least so far that's not all Greeks (though it's alarmingly increasing). They're delusional if they think the rest of The eurozone will just keep sending money to pay for your bills if you elect a party in to government who's leader goes on TV and attempts to extort the rest of the eurozone and who has absolutely no intention or plan to balance the Greek budget.

European Bangladesh, I think you're being a bit over dramatic, there's poorer countries than Greece in the eurozone that are contributing towards your bailout. You Greeks really need to get it out of your heads that there's some sort of alternative to living within your means, there isn't. Either you live within your means inside the eurozone or you live within your means outside the eurozone. Choose wisely in June.

[KoTeMoRe]

Yes greece, if you want expensive entitlements, such as retirement at 55(50 for women), you need to live much poorer when you are working. This is at the core of the problem with the modern left. Gimme. Gimme. Gimme. Na. Someone else will pay.

It doesn't matter who greece votes for. greece needs a fundamental change in its core entitlement beliefs before this will change.


It always cracks me up when the extreme left supports Obama, who is much further to the right then even the most right wing parties in many areas.

Modern Left? Gimme Gimme? 55/50 years? Core entitlement beliefs? Any source for this or just basically mudslinging?

Not that I do not belive you, but I am trying to see where you are going with that.

Joka: Which poorer countries in the Eurozone are you looking at? None of the new kids on the block are anywhere near contributing and Portugal is in recession itself.

[valtrex]

I said the people voting for Syriza are in denial, at least so far that's not all Greeks (though it's alarmingly increasing). They're delusional if they think the rest of The eurozone will just keep sending money to pay for your bills if you elect a party in to government who's leader goes on TV and attempts to extort the rest of the eurozone and who has absolutely no intention or plan to balance the Greek budget.

European Bangladesh, I think you're being a bit over dramatic, there's poorer countries than Greece in the eurozone that are contributing towards your bailout. You Greeks really need to get it out of your heads that there's some sort of alternative to living within your means, there isn't. Either you live within your means inside the eurozone or you live within your means outside the eurozone. Choose wisely in June.

Thank you for your advice. On Monday 18 bil € will arrive here, do you want to know what percentage of this amount of money will be used to "pay our bills"? zilch, nada, nothing, zero, it will return to our lenders, the banks. By all means, please continue believing you are paying for our salaries: Your taxes are going to the banks. Btw, people here have already decided, Syriza will win hands down by a large margin (at least 4% difference from the second party). We are so desperate, we do not care what Europe says or what our EU colleagues in the North advice us to do.

[L-107]

But since the bank's lend you money so that you can pay whatever it is you need to pay, and the money being given pay's the banks that loaned you doesnt that mean the european taxpayer is paying your bills salaries ...whatever??!!

Another mith people need to look away from is that beeing part of the EMU and having the euro as a currency does not make thing work out. It has the opposite effect if you are not ready for such a strong currency.

And if i understood part of what was said then people and greece and NOT JUST greece seem to be rather dilusional about the whole euro business. The euro is not the magic blue pill that gets the job done for you. It can help you but it sure as hell can damage you in all sort of ways.

[Lazy Lob]

The Greeks a shyte scared that if they go back to the Drachma their corrupt politicians will have no checks or balances from "Europe". What a mess.

[TheCorruptedOne]

Joka: Which poorer countries in the Eurozone are you looking at? None of the new kids on the block are anywhere near contributing and Portugal is in recession itself.

I'll give you a hint. The last country to join the Eurozone, for an example (not to mention others). And the sums aren't exactly small, considering the size of our economy. Bailing out the countries in need is a collective responsibility of the Eurozone.

[KoTeMoRe]

I'll give you a hint. The last country to join the Eurozone, for an example (not to mention others). And the sums aren't exactly small, considering the size of our economy. Bailing out the countries in need is a collective responsibility of the Eurozone.

Estonia has been allocated 3.4 billions in CSF (for the 2007/2013 period). While it contributes less than 0,1% of the current Eu budget. IE 130 million eur.

Stay on your lane.

EFSF wise Estonia contributes to less than 2 billions, Greece 21,1bn+.

[DS73]

Estonia has been allocated 3.4 billions in CSF (for the 2007/2013 period). While it contributes less than 0,1% of the current Eu budget. IE 130 million eur.

Stay on your lane.

EFSF wise Estonia contributes to less than 2 billions, Greece 21,1bn+.

O'really?Greece guarantees 0. That is 0.0.
Greece, Portugal and Ireland don't contribute, they "stepped out".
Anyway It was supposed that Greece gets from EFSF 109bil. not Estonia, Slovakia who do have to pay.

http://www.efsf.europa.eu/attachments/faq_en.pdf
page2.


As usually.

[carbonrod]

Modern Left? Gimme Gimme? 55/50 years? Core entitlement beliefs? Any source for this or just basically mudslinging?

Not that I do not belive you, but I am trying to see where you are going with that.

I don't like to cite wiki, but it is the first source that came up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement

it has been all over for a while now. Here for example:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/bu...pagewanted=all

or here:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charl...erous_pensions


People have to learn to plan and think long term, rather than expect a bird in the hand now for someone else's work later. greece is just one example of a group that decided to live outside of its means and doesn't want to come to terms with it. Resenting Germany, with its 67 year retirement age, while protesting an increase in the greek retirement age, which would still be much less than Germany.

Similarly, here, in Canada, we have quebec protesting about how they have the lowest tuition, though it is paid for by other provinces. It is a dreamworld.

[KoTeMoRe]

I don't like to cite wiki, but it is the first source that came up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement

it has been all over for a while now. Here for example:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/bu...pagewanted=all

or here:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charl...erous_pensions


People have to learn to plan and think long term, rather than expect a bird in the hand now for someone else's work later. greece is just one example of a group that decided to live outside of its means and doesn't want to come to terms with it. Resenting Germany, with its 67 year retirement age, while protesting an increase in the greek retirement age, which would still be much less than Germany.

Similarly, here, in Canada, we have quebec protesting about how they have the lowest tuition, though it is paid for by other provinces. It is a dreamworld.

Then instead of ridiculing yourself, you should check decent sources.

Btw the German average age of retirement is 61.7 (both genders), Greece had it at 61.2 (2008).

Greeks don't quit their jobs at 55 (legally it is at 65 men and 60 women) but the average is at 59,3 years (with the inherent layoffs), they don't have lavish entitlements (Greek unemployed earn the a bit more than third of a French unemployed), their minimum wage is currently at 580 eur (when actually respected) the minimum in France is at ~1300 eur.

Greeks work longer than pretty much every Eurozone economy (about 700 hours longer per year than ze Germans). They usually have more self employed than the Eurozone average (roughly 35%, Germany 11%).

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/economi...2288-table-grc

I think Greeks should put up a slander and libel fund or something and sue every press outlet, politician, individual that slanders them. I'm sure their issues, given the level of "misconception" towards them, would be largely solved in a matter of months.

[KoTeMoRe]

O'really?Greece guarantees 0. That is 0.0.
Greece, Portugal and Ireland don't contribute, they "stepped out".
Anyway It was supposed that Greece gets from EFSF 109bil. not Estonia, Slovakia who do have to pay.

http://www.efsf.europa.eu/attachments/faq_en.pdf
page2.


As usually.

Yes as usually, Mickey.

http://www.efsf.europa.eu/attachment...reement_en.pdf

Look date, look annexes, look Greece already had been contributing 2 billions when it became a stepping out Guarantor.

Greece has already contributed more than Estonia for that matter.

Anyway Slovakia and Estonia will be receiving more than their share through CSF, so again, their input is really symbolic.

[Dexx]

Then instead of ridiculing yourself, you should check decent sources.

Btw the German average age of retirement is 61.7 (both genders), Greece had it at 61.2 (2008).

Greeks don't quit their jobs at 55 (legally it is at 65 men and 60 women) but the average is at 59,3 years (with the inherent layoffs), they don't have lavish entitlements (Greek unemployed earn the a bit more than third of a French unemployed), their minimum wage is currently at 580 eur (when actually respected) the minimum in France is at ~1300 eur.

Greeks work longer than pretty much every Eurozone economy (about 700 hours longer per year than ze Germans). They usually have more self employed than the Eurozone average (roughly 35%, Germany 11%).

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/economi...2288-table-grc

I think Greeks should put up a slander and libel fund or something and sue every press outlet, politician, individual that slanders them. I'm sure their issues, given the level of "misconception" towards them, would be largely solved in a matter of months.

Greece is not comparable to first world countries. When a country is unproductive it is not comparable to France or Germany. They are more equal to developing countries or even less due to their lack of goods that can be sold. Greece should have salaries that resemble their productivity and maybe a little bit more from EU development funds. I am self employed as a laywer and need to put in productive hours to make it to month ends to pay the bills. I cannot go to work to brows online forums or whatever. If I did that, I would be in a position like Greece: Unproductive work and not enough money to pay the bills.

[KoTeMoRe]

Greece is not comparable to first world countries. When a country is unproductive it is not comparable to France or Germany. They are more equal to developing countries or even less due to their lack of goods that can be sold. Greece should have salaries that resemble their productivity and maybe a little bit more from EU development funds. I am self employed as a laywer and need to put in productive hours to make it to month ends to pay the bills. I cannot go to work to brows online forums or whatever. If I did that, I would be in a position like Greece: Unproductive work and not enough money to pay the bills.

What does the last part of your post has to do with Greece? You being self employed pretty much nulls your whole idea of "productive" hours. You manage your hours as you wish. If you can do your work in 3 hours you don't need 8. If you need 8 hours, you can find them throughout your day especially for paperwork and as in my case, mass notarization and phone calls. Btw your personal snipe was duly noted.

Now productivity? What is productivity in Greece's case? It is largely relevant to the dominant sectors of one's economy. If you base your economy largely in services (non-financial), you can do little about your own productivity, you'd need extensive labor hours.

Not a 1st world economy? Frankly I'd stop myself from judging productivity wise. Especially with Greeks having a real productivity worth 88% of the Japanese one. But hey...as I said it, the Greeks should form that anti-slander and defamation fund.