M1 Garand in .303 ?

[oldsoak]

Heres a few questions that I hope those more knowledgeabe about the workings of an M1 may be able to answer.

Could the Garand have been produced in .303 calibre for the British and commonwealth forces and how difficult is it technically to do bearing in mind that the .303 is a rimmed cartridge of smaller dimensions than the rimless 30-06 ? Was it radically more difficult to produce than a standard bold action rife ?

Would it have been possible for the Canadians to have licenced produce a .303 Garand and help replace LE for both Canadian and UK forces in ETO ?

Were rounds ever issued "loose" to troops for assembly into clips or were clips always factory loaded ?

[James]

I think that between the rim and the taper of the .303, a different feed system than a staggered 8 round en bloc clip would have been necessary. Maybe a single stack magazine along the lines of the SMLE or Mk. IV would have worked. I think if someone had put their mind to it it could have been done. In .303 it probably could have been designed to use the same stripper clips that had been in use for many years.

I believe that the infantry (American at least) received rifle ammo preloaded in clips that came in cloth bandoleers, and machine gunners received preloaded cloth belts. I think loose bulk ammo was delivered to ordnance companies behind the lines and they had crank machines to load loose ammo into belts.


From a logistical standpoint, I think it would have been easier for Canada and the UK to use the Garand in .30 and just make more .30 US, rather than two rifles in two calibers.

[Hollis]

^^^ 2 X. I have not heard of one, but that does not mean it was not done.

I'll try to remember to ask a friend who is a Garand collector, who is very knowledgeable about Garands.

[LineDoggie]

Heres a few questions that I hope those more knowledgeabe about the workings of an M1 may be able to answer.

Could the Garand have been produced in .303 calibre for the British and commonwealth forces and how difficult is it technically to do bearing in mind that the .303 is a rimmed cartridge of smaller dimensions than the rimless 30-06 ? Was it radically more difficult to produce than a standard bold action rife ?

Would it have been possible for the Canadians to have licenced produce a .303 Garand and help replace LE for both Canadian and UK forces in ETO ?

Were rounds ever issued "loose" to troops for assembly into clips or were clips always factory loaded ?

Some 89,000 M1Garands were sent as Lend lease and very very few ever issued to UK forces (most to Home Guard for some reason). Later on post Pearl Harbor several Army Commandos(No. 6 during Torch and No.2 in Burma) were issued the Garands in 1942 from US Army stcks in the UK and kept them until after V-J day. Any .303 Garand would have to use a SMLE stripper due to the logistics issues if issued std ammo bandoleers. Certainly it would be possible to manufacture a .303 garand, but many things would need to be modified for the cartridges pressures design, powder burn rate, etc. all this might take as much as a year or More all the while Springfield Armory and Winchester (Primary contractors in WWII) were struggling to produce as many as possible for US forces during that time.

.30M2 ball was issued in prepackaged 8 round Enbloc clips in Bandoleers for the M1, 5 round strippers in Bandoleers for the M1903, M1917, M1918BAR, and Loose for filling Browning Machinegun belts using the M1918 Belt Filling Machines. during the 1942 Phillipines campaign, the units* issued the Gas Trap Garands had to refill enblocs when pre loaded ammo ran low


The Phillipine division a regular US Army formation was the only unit issued Garands 31st INF Rgt (US) 43rd, 45th, 57th INF rgts (Phillipine Scouts). All other forces in the Phllipines USN, USMC, USAAF, PA had a Mix of M1903's and M1917 Rifles.

[oldsoak]

The problem lies in the calibre - vast UK stocks of .303 plus US, Canadian, Australian and Indian factories producing untold quantities means you've got a very compex phaseing in of a new cartridge. It didnt stop us for adopting a 7.92x57 round for the BESA MG's in our tanks mind, or useing .30 and .50 cal US link in Brownings MG's gotten on lend lease.
My train of thought is this - the .303 M1 initially goes to UK specialist troops such as Paratroops, Commando's etc to be followed by re-equipping Canadian troops en-masse in time for Normandy. LE rifles in Canadian stocks get given to the UK to replace losses and relieve pressure on UK arms factories.
The option of producing the stock .30 cal Garand and issueing that to CANUK troops is an option. The probem is what to do with how to phase it in and all the .303 ammo left over. I reckon the Canucks could have been re-equipped which would have heped logistics tremendously when working alongside the US and even helped the US grunt ( a Bren in 30-06 manufactured by Inglis replacing the BAR ? ). All remaining .303 stocks then transferred to UK or Aus and .30-06 becomes the new Canadian round. Once Canadians are done, UK troops get re-equipped on the basis of those fighting on the flanks of US forces or alongside Canadians getting them first.
Now, what if we re-engineered the MG42 for .303 ? Heck, I reckon a half decent gun shop in the states could do such a conversion, so why not us ? Be a good way of getting rid of that mountain of .303 too !
As an aside, the sheer production capability and capacity in North America ( and I incude the Canadians in this ) always gets me. There really was no doubt that the allies were going to swat this one the moment those factories and steel mills got going.

[Hollis]

Oldsoak, rimmed cases are difficult to make mags and MG to work with them. The MG42, pushes the round through the link to chamber it. A rimmed cartridge would hang up on the link. The Browning 1919, could be adapted, because it pulls the round from the belt (backwards), it drops and then fed into the chamber.

Probably the simplest solution which would be a joy to collectors, is to sell the ammo to the surplus market. In the States .303 surplus bounces around in price. Generally it is more expensive than 8mm Mauser and 7.62 R,

[Mein Teil]

I don't know if it's true, but I heard some were converted to 8x57 Mauser by Israel.