Not something you need to hope for.Originally Posted by Surenas
Last edited by AttilaA; 06-08-2012 at 04:16 AM.
You both sides need to be smacked back to peace. You're arguing like small boys talking about whose dad is stronger (or making a size contest).
Damn... war can break out for the smallest stuff...
Russia, if **** breaks loose, I hope you teach your unruly ex-republics some sense. And I mean BOTH ! No advantaging any side.
How? I don't see the ways to do it without any international hysteria about awakening Russian imperialism. Two really effective ways to prevent a war there are either military campaign against both countries or annexation of both.
Well Russia is in military alliance with Armenia and Russian-Armenia relations are more than friendly .
So only one way to prevent a war remains.
Border Guards are not trained for conventional warfare, no matter their equipment. The most they can do in such a conflict are mopping up operations.
I've forgotten if I've already had this discussion with you, so you'll forgive me if I'm repeating myself. The Armenian Army and the NKDA don't need to be "big". The terrain favours them immensely, so the disparity in equipment and numbers can easily be compensated by the correct positioning of troops. A narrow mountain pass, for example, can easily be held by a reinforced platoon against a vastly superior force, numerically and otherwise. The NK terrain is extremely tank-unfriendly country (that is not to say that tanks and other armored vehicles play no parts in such a terrain, only that navigating alone is an extremely tricky business) that favors the defender in almost every way.
A fight in that kind of terrain is won by well-trained and highly motivated infantry with ample support, not billions of dollars worth of equipment.
Had they really thought it that easy, they would have already done it. They may huff and puff, but at the end of the day, they are military professionals who fully understand the inherent difficulties in attacking the NKR. The same goes for the Armenian generals and state officials who speak of a "final solution", presumably meaning that the Azeri Army would be annihilated in the case of another full-scale military confrontation.
All that said, these recent attacks by the Azeri Army are definitely meant to test the Armenian defenses, which means they are definitely at least considering the military option.
That's not the point, even Border Guards which is just Border Guards and not army, has in fact certain broader capabilities than Armenian army.
BTW, that's not the case, Border Troops of Azerbaijan in fact are trained for conviential warfare. I'm not talking about soldiers that stand as guards on border, but the fighting force, known as Border Troops.
There is unfortunately no point in discussing these things with the mindset you got (you know it better yourself).
Your whole argument is based on "terrain", do you have something better to come with? I guess not.
Last edited by AttilaA; 06-08-2012 at 10:52 AM.
Absolutely, because the Armenian Army is more than likely not trained in conducting irregular warfare like the Azeri Border Guards are.
You're too preocuppied with equipment. That equipment (especially the assault choppers) are used as much in irregular warfare as in conventional. I never said they aren't a fighting force.
1. Pray tell, what mindest is that?
2. I'm not Orthodox, or a Christian, for that matter.
3. Rant? I brought certain facts to the table, to which you responded by basically calling me an ideologically constipated religious fundamentalist. If it wasn't factually innacurate to the point of being funny, I just might have taken offense.
Let me put it this way: if it's not too personal a question, have you served your time in the Azeri Army (or the armed forces of any country, as I'm not sure where you're from)?
Your rant of "terrain", "highly motivated and trained Armenian soldiers" just sounds too familiar.
The Border Troops are trained in conducting conventional warfare, Border Guards does not really mean soldiers guarding borders, they have a fighting force, consisting of professional soldiers mostly, trained for conventional warfare, known as Border Troops.
Maybe you should be aware of the fact that entire Armenian inventory of attack helicopters consists of 15 old Mi-24s, that's why I gave such example of Border Troops. People should stop talking with fantasy.
Yes, and this is none of your business. You are not making a point by using such words as "well-trained and highly motivated", in fact it is you who sound like a total jerk here. The opposite side are "badly-motivated" according to you?
We are all aware of terrain difficulties, but when your are basing your whole argument on it, then one cannot go far discussing this with you.
Wow...that was some moaning, I could even hear the sand in axewound grinding. Usually Paya is far more gentle.
What I said was "A fight in that kind of terrain is won by well-trained and highly motivated infantry with ample support, not billions of dollars worth of equipment." I never mentioned the soldiers of either side, I merely stated what I hold to be true. To simplify it even more, heavy equipment is of fairly limited value in mountainous terrain, except for quick breakthroughs through the valleys and highways, and, when possible, infantry support. And to be more specific, the absolute nucleus of what is needed in such terrain is, again, well trained and highly motivated infantry with ample artillery support. Well trained because even patrolling such an area is arduous work, let alone fighting through a network of trenches, ambushes and minefields which are definitely there, and highly motivated for the same reason.
Then they are very different from Border Troops of other ex-Communist countries, dealing mostly in counter-insurgency and other irregular warfare. One asks oneself if Azerbaijan's Border Troops are a conventional force, then who is tasked with the duties I described.
I fail to see the relevance of what you speak of. I merely stated that assault choppers are used in irregular warfare just as much, if not more, as in conventional conflicts and that it is no indicator of the conventional role of the Azeri Border Troops. Also, kindly tone down the hostility. It is as annoying as it is unwarranted.
If it's none of my business, you needn't have replied. If you served in the Infantry, you should be aware that the fancy equipment you never even see play no part in an actual firefight. "Smerch" or "MiG-29" are not your friends then, only your rifle, your training, and if at all possible, a competent junior officer and NCOs. And when mountains and forests are added to the overall equation, when there is a possibility of an ambush virtually every step of the way, when a conscript is transported from a relatively safe and secure environment of a barracks or a front line base (not to mention the civilian life) to such a situation, the psychological stress is immense.
Again, I never delved into the subject of competency of soldiers on either side.
I'm basing my argument on the terrain because it's about the only thing that is clear and indisputable, let alone immensely important. If NK was a flatland the Azeri General Staff's statement would probably be true, but such as it is, they are hesitating, and rightly so, as the seizure of a territory with such a terrain configuration, that fortified, and with armed defenders in abundance is extremely difficult to capture, let alone with acceptable losses. And that is true for any fighting force on this planet.
I AM being gentle, damn it!
The people here who claim that equipment wins the war really need to have their clocks cleaned. I mean just how much better armed was Russia than the Chechen rebels for example? Yet they still managed to pretty much take the whole city back in 1995, just by sneaking through the sewers and silently surrounding all our checkpoints and garrisons. We had too many corrupt officers, complacent commanders and so on and all of these things were more important than the equipment used.
Now the Armenians are known as some very hardcore fighters. Azeris of course have a clear firepower and equipment advantage. If this war ever happens - it will be something like 'Man against the Machine'.
Last edited by Flamming_Python; 06-08-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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