Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 : 38th army vs 27th army

[Zorro C9]

2. China is de jure still engaged in a civil war.

Qualification needed please.

[ggk]

By BERNARD E. TRAINOR, Special to The New York Times
Published: June 06, 1989



http://www.nytimes.com/1989/06/06/wo...-for-army.html

Both the 16th and 27th Armies were brought into Beijing to break up the demonstrations after the 38th Army, which is stationed in Beijing, refused to use armed force against the students. Soldiers of the 16th Army are said to have joined the Beijing garrison in its refusal to break up the demonstrations with force. But the 27th Army, reportedly commanded by a nephew of President Yang Shangkun, opened fire on the students over the weekend and now occupies Tiananmen square and much of downtown Beijing with armored forces. Four Armies Near Capital

Details of the military situation in and around Beijing remain sketchy and confused to military analysts here despite extensive American satellite coverage of China. But the specialists say at least four armies, each with a total strength of about 45,000, are deployed in the area.


-------------------------------------------

Experts on the Chinese military agree that the Chinese officer corps is probably appalled that the army had to be used against the people. A Pentagon officer who recently returned from an extended assignment in China said, ''The P.L.A. has its roots among the people and the mystique of it being truly a people's army is an integral part of its tradition. To use it against the students was a wrenching experience for its commanders.'' Opposition to Crackdown

[KoTeMoRe]

Qualification needed please.

ROC-PRC is a civil war...

[Zorro C9]

ROC-PRC is a civil war...

Yes but it has little relevance to T Square.

[KoTeMoRe]

Yes but it has little relevance to T Square.

I never said it had...I only provided you with an answer about the idea behind his post.

[Zorro C9]

I'll wait for his interpretation, thanks.

[Sootan]

Bump, this discussion is too interesting to just stop here.

[comet]

Bump, this discussion is too interesting to just stop here.

I'll second this. No one has anything new to add on though

[ggk]

found this but the link are dead or closed - George Washington University

Cable, From: U.S. Embassy Beijing, To: Department of State, Wash DC, SITREP No. 35: June 6, 0500 Hours (June 5, 1989) Two days after the crackdown, this report from the U.S. Embassy stated that a western military attaché had told the U.S. military representative that one PLA unit, the 27^th Army, "was responsible for most of the death and destruction at Tiananmen Square on June 3." The 27^th, the cable notes, was commanded by the nephew of PRC President Yang Shangkun, a noted hardliner, and was even accused of killing "soldiers from other units run over by the 27^th APC's and tanks." The document also indicates that a large contingent of soldiers from the 27^th had taken up position on a highway overpass, "and seem poised for attack by other PLA units."

Secretary of State's Morning Summary for June 6, 1989, China: Descent into Chaos

By the morning of June 6, it appeared to some in the State Department that the situation in Beijing was teetering on the brink of political chaos or even civil war. This Department of State morning summary describes clashes among different PLA units, with sources claiming that in many cases the soldiers were sympathetic with the demonstrators and often complicit in the destruction of their own military vehicles. "At least some of the troops still entering Beijing," the document notes, "are arriving without authorization and are intent upon attacking the 27^th Army." The document also appears to be anticipating an intensification of the current leadership crisis, reporting rumors that senior leader Deng Xiaoping has died or is near death, and an attempt on the life of Premier Li Peng by one of his own security guards in the Great Hall of the People. Moreover, Shanghai also appeared to be heading toward some kind of violent military crackdown as PLA troops assembled outside the city, ready to move on striking citizens if necessary.

Cable, From: U.S. Embassy Beijing, To: Department of State, Wash DC, TFCH01--SITREP No. 37: June 7, 0500 Hours Local (June 6, 1989) In this document, Embassy officials report continuing large-scale troop movements around Beijing amid persistent but unconfirmed rumors of splits and clashes among Chinese military units near the Nanyuan Airport. The cable also reports the harassment of citizens by troops trying to enforce martial law.



-----------------------

1. so basically tanks from the 27th run over soldiers from the 38th (or others)
2. some incident in shanghai (will look into this later)
3. now we have location of one of the clashes Nanyuan Airport

-=ggk=-

[ggk]

so after googling i found out that it was a Nanyuan Air Base .. the elite 15th Airborne Division from Wuhan attack the airbase. no other information though on the outcome

the second clash i found is an APC duel near Minzu Hotel, only about one mile west of Tian An Men Square. Firing machine gun at each other. N other info on the outcome of this clash too.

[IconOfEvi]

I wonder in reality how many battles and possibly wars raged around China in those days? I suppose because the truth would be devastating to the order.

[ggk]

sorry guys stonewalled.. cant find anything else

but there is this one book about Major General Xu Qinxian though
"Tiananmen and the Martial Law Troops"

http://www.boxun.us/news/publish/chi..._printer.shtml