Reply With QuoteTell you what, read the Effin article, before you rant.Originally Posted by tokengator
there is a couple examples on wiki:
- Kathryn Johnston (c1914-2006) was an elderly Atlanta, Georgia woman shot by three undercover police officers in her home on November 21, 2006 after she fired one shot at the ceiling, assuming her home was being invaded. While the officers were wounded by friendly fire, none of the officers received life threatening injuries, but Johnston was killed by their gunfire.[1]
- Two former Los Angeles Police Department officers, along with 13 others, have plead guilty to running a robbery ring, which used fake no-knock raids as a ruse to catch victims off guard. The defendants would then steal cash and drugs to sell on the street. This tactic led Radley Balko, editor of Reason Magazine, to complain "So not only can you not be sure the people banging down your door at night are the police, not only can you not be sure they’re the police even if they say they’re the police, you can’t even be sure it’s safe to let them in even if they are the police."[3][4][5]
- Tracy Ingle was shot in his house five times during a no-knock raid in North Little Rock, Arkansas. After the police entered the house Tracy thought armed robbers had entered the house and intended to scare them away with a non-working gun. The police expected to find drugs, but none were found. He was brought to the intensive care, but police pulled him out of intensive care for questioning, after which they arrested him and charged him with assault on the officers who shot him.[6][7]
- Ismael Mena, a Mexican immigrant, was shot and killed by SWAT team officers in Denver, Colorado who were performing a no-knock raid that was approved by a judge acting on false information contained in a search warrant. The police believed there to be drugs in the house, but no drugs were found on the premises, and it was later revealed that the address given to the SWAT team by officer Joseph Bini was the wrong one. Jefferson County District Attorney Dave Thomas investigated the matter and cleared the officers involved with the raid on the grounds that Mena had pointed a gun and fired it at SWAT officers, although who fired first remains unknown. However, many have objected to the investigation's findings due to inconsistencies in the various officers' account of what happened. The American Civil Liberties Union, and others, have objected to the Denver Police Department's request for a no-knock raid and the Judge's decision to allow such a raid on the grounds that they failed to meet the criteria necessary for a no-knock raid.[8]
- US Marine Jose Guerena was shot twenty-two times by a SWAT team planning to execute a search warrant. He retrieved a legally possessed rifle in response to sudden intruders, likely concerned for his family's safety, and the SWAT team opened fire on him before establishing any communication. The team later retracted its initial claims he had opened fire when it was established that Guerena had never fired and his safety was still on. Members of the SWAT team subsequently hired legal defense and a large following of fellow Marines held a memorial service at his home with his widow.
Tell you what, read the Effin article, before you rant.
Seems to be superfluous and a grandstand play for the NRA. Someone breaks into your home, you have the right to defend yourself.
I did. Not sure where my points are veering off the article. These issues only arise from no-knock raids. A normally served search warrant is not going to result in people shooting cops at their front door.
Like no criminal / felon ever resisted being arrested, right?
Connaught Ranger
Like no criminal / felon ever resisted being arrested, right?
Connaught Ranger
and that justifies militarization, no-knock raids, violation of presumption of innocence, and killing civilians?
Read the effin article........... No knock is not even mentioned. (one I read) it was a domestic disturbance where the officer followed the guy into the house.
According to the Evansville Courier Press, the bill is a response to a decision made by the Indiana Supreme Court in 2011. “The court ruled that homeowners do not have the right to use force against law enforcement officials who they believe are illegally entering their homes. That decision came in the case of Richard Barnes, who filed a lawsuit against police who followed him into his house while they were responding to a domestic dispute Barnes had with his wife.”
If you got a hard on for cops, keep it in your pants.
and? you think the support from the bill came that single incident? That incident brought about a ruling "The court ruled that homeowners do not have the right to use force against law enforcement officials who they believe are illegally entering their homes." which is what the bill is in response to, not the incident - the broad scope ruling. It doesn't take a great deal of critical thinking to understand what scenarios this is mostly addressing.
The answer you are looking for is "Exigent Circumstances".
An exigent circumstance, in the American law of criminal procedure, allows law enforcement to enter a structure without a warrant, or if they have a "knock and announce" warrant, without knocking and waiting for refusal under certain circumstances. It must be a situation where people are in imminent danger, evidence faces imminent destruction, or a suspect will escape.
In the criminal procedure context, exigent circumstance means:
An emergency situation requiring swift action to prevent imminent danger to life or serious damage to property, or to forestall the imminent escape of a suspect, or destruction of evidence. There is no ready litmus test for determining whether such circumstances exist, and in each case the extraordinary situation must be measured by the facts known by officials.
Those circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe that entry (or other relevant prompt action) was necessary to prevent physical harm to the officers or other persons, the destruction of relevant evidence, the escape of a suspect, or some other consequence improperly frustrating legitimate law enforcement efforts.
Exigent circumstances may make a warrantless search constitutional if probable cause exists. The existence of exigent circumstances is a mixed question of law and fact. There is no absolute test for determining if exigent circumstances exist, but general factors have been identified. These include: clear evidence of probable cause; the seriousness of the offense and likelihood of destruction of evidence; limitations on the search to minimize the intrusion only to preventing destruction of evidence; and clear indications of exigency.
Exigency may be determined by: degree of urgency involved; amount of time needed to get a warrant; whether evidence is about to be removed or destroyed; danger at the site; knowledge of the suspect that police are on his or her trail; and/or ready destructibility of the evidence. In determining the time necessary to obtain a warrant, a telephonic warrant should be considered. As electronic data may be altered or eradicated in seconds, in a factually compelling case the doctrine of exigent circumstances will support a warrantless seizure.
Even in exigent circumstances, while a warrantless seizure may be permitted, a subsequent warrant to search may still be necessary.
In spirit I agree with what tokengator wrote. People should have the right to resist unlawful entry by police officers. If they get arrested and get their day in court, the law will be on their side if they can prove the "unlawful" character of the police action. But in practice, you would end up creating more problems since people would probably use this right in a wrong way and end up getting resisting arrest charges (or worst) for minor things.
What I do not understand is why the people who passed this law can not force a change in police procedures, so that this law would not be needed in the first case. Does each city make its own police procedures or is it state wide process? In the end, LEO must be under the control of legislative bodies.
The BPP would so totally agree with you, this is the view held by many, if not most, in the inner city ghettos.
You have an obvious agenda, by the way, are all the examples you linked too, cases that occurred in the State of Louisiana, or are you using random cases picked from all over the USA to back up your claims of "militarization, no-knock raids, violation of presumption of innocence, and killing civilians?" when its well known that individual State Police Forces have their own way of responding to the serving of warrants, etc..etc..
And you still failed to answer my original question:-Connaught Ranger.Originally Posted by Connaught RangerLike no criminal / felon ever resisted being arrested, right?
Well, yes I would expect police to enter if they believed I or anyone in my home were in trrouble, but I meant roused from sleep, door/ window crashes, shadowy figure with a gun type scenario. But it appears this line of posting has been stepped on already so that'll be that.
Thanks for linking the article for me, but i do disagree with your last statement.
http://www.odmp.org/officer/17059-co...thomas-roberts
http://www.911jobforums.com/f79/two-...-killed-26369/
A few years ago two officers were killed in Mishawaka Indiana, the first to die in the line of duty for over 70 years. Being a police officer is a hard and dangerous job, and like many public service jobs a thankless one at that. If i KNEW it was the police knocking at my door wanting to search the place, and i knew i had done thinking wrong, i still would not resist. I don't intend to get killed or be killed over a misunderstanding.
So true - there is a law against "disobeying a police officer" - I have been arrested under it several times - I have come to see the wisdom of having the LEO be in charge and able to give orders, the legality of such orders or actions to be determined in a court of law, at a later time. Sometimes life is unfair - deal with it.
Posting Permissions
