Reply With QuoteHoly $hit, this idiot again?
F-16 co-designer blames stealth ‘skin' for F-22 problems
TYNDALL AIR FORCE BASE — A man who helped design the F-16 says the problem that grounded the F-22 for several months last year isn’t the oxygen system.
Pierre Sprey, who helped develop the A-10 and F-16 jets, said he believes the glues that hold the F-22 stealth “skin” in place is emanating chemicals that are making the pilots sick.
According to Sprey, the Air Force has overlooked, or ignored, the potential stealth skin problems because it has not been able to test successfully for adhesive toxins in the pilot’s bloodstream. He said the Air Force doesn’t talk about the stealth adhesives because the chemical makeup of the compounds that make up the stealth skin are considered “classified information.”
The Air Force confirmed the stealth adhesive compound used in the F-22 is classified material and exclusive to the F-22, but it has downplayed Sprey’s accusations, saying the adhesives were included in a recent investigation into problems impacting F-22 pilots.
“We are aware of the theory regarding stealth coatings and other chemicals used in the production and maintenance of the F-22, and that has been rolled into our analysis,” said Heidi Davis, an Air Force spokeswoman.
Sprey said the reason the Air Force doesn’t want to reveal any problems with the adhesives’ coatings is it would severely impact the F-22, each of which cost more than $412 million, according to the Government Accountability Office.
Dealing with the F-22’s glues, which provide the F-22 its stealth, would mean a “major rebuild of the airplane,” Sprey said.
“The F-22 and the F-35 are three-fourths of the Air Force budget, and that is what is at stake,” he said.
The 170 F-22 jets are stationed at six U.S. bases, including Tyndall Air Force Base, where F-22 pilots are trained.
Sprey said when the F-22 reaches speeds above Mach 1.6, which is about 1,200 miles and hour at sea level, the adhesive sets off gases that can cause the same symptoms of dizziness that have plagued the F-22 pilots. When the F-22 is in for repairs to its “stealth coating,” the adhesive is re-spread across the plane.
“The adhesive has to be reapplied,” Sprey said. “When it is, it increases the risk to the pilots.”
According to Sprey, the pilot is exposed to diisocyanates, which are found within the polyurethane glues that comprise the stealth coatings, at a number of times because the adhesives are reapplied in the upkeep of the plane. Sprey said diisocyanates are well known as an industrial hazard that can cause both severe lung and neurologic problems.
But, Davis said Sprey’s theory cannot be considered a leading line of inquiry at this point because it would need to be reconciled with contrary evidence related to the absence of toxins in life-support system components, cockpit air samples, or post-incident pilot blood samples.
Sprey vehemently disagreed.
He said polyurethanes are used in the Lockheed Martin stealth coatings, which also contain diisoycanates, and are one among several potential sources of poisoning of pilots that Lockheed and the Air Force should have been testing for toxicity long before they flew the first F-22. The Air Force said diisoycanates have not registered in the blood of F-22 pilots.
Lockheed Martin declined to comment for this report.
More:F-16.net F-16 co-designer blames stealth 'skin' for F-22 pr...
RANDAL YAKEY / News Herald Writer
Holy $hit, this idiot again?
You call Pierre Sprey an idiot?
Pierre Sprey Knows a whole lot more about aviation and design than most of the high ranking Air Force generals that are trying to protect their F22 rather than the pilots!Originally Posted by C.Puffs
Yep. As biased as they come. Look up "Fighter Mafia". Anytime a news rag needs to add a dose of respectability (in the eyes of the uninformed anyway) to a hit piece on a new fighter they roll Sprey/Wheeler/Ricionni out of the retirement home. About as useful as asking Steve Jobs to extol the virtues of Windows 7.
You clearly have never read anything he had to say about fighter design in general. In his eyes the F-15 was a gold-plated turd, did you know that?
Of course he is biased. so was Johnson. Pretty adamant that stealth was BS for example according to Rich for example.
I know that wasn't directed at me, but I think I have read most everything public. Same goes for Rich, Johnson, Boyd, and Ufimtsev. I am not a massive fanboy of Sprey, and disagree with him on a number of points, but to call him an idiot is a stretch. If you consider their original spec for the lightweight fighter before the AF insisted on a bunch of "gold plating", they may have been right.
Seems very unlikely that any aviation adhasive (if set properly) would emit toxic gases due to increased skin tempratures above Mach 1.6 and somehow find itself in the O2 system or get inside the pressurized cockpit.
first of all I know adhasive gases have a strong smell to them and second I don't believe the symptoms hypoxia from lack of/inproper delivery of O2 are the same as the fumes of an adhasive.
One example is that you vision suffers first in the lack of O2 situation and you decision making and your reaction times drops quick......working with glue you get a nasty headache, watery eyes and coughing.
Okay. How about blindingly biased old codger who is stuck in 1965 when it comes to fighter design?
Exactly. He's just trotting out the same bias he had against the F-15 and has transferred it wholesale to today's generation of jets. I don't know how those three (Sprey/Wheeler/Ricionni) can even look themselves in the mirror. Absolutely disgusting.
True or False?The F-22 and the F-35 are three-fourths of the Air Force budget.
Not even fvcking close.
FY2012 USAF budget $166.3 billion with $5.3 billion for the F-35 program. Or about 3%.
http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/shared/me...110210-034.pdf
LoL, before I even opened this thread I knew it would be Pierre Sprey...just knew it.
What about the f35?
So Air Force will buy a plane that is knowed to be dangerous for pilots and could be a failure in the air defenses system? this is man going too far, interesting to see how far peoples are ready to go for public notoriety.He said polyurethanes are used in the Lockheed Martin stealth coatings, which also contain diisoycanates, and are one among several potential sources of poisoning of pilots that Lockheed and the Air Force should have been testing for toxicity long before they flew the first F-22. The Air Force said diisoycanates have not registered in the blood of F-22 pilots.
It is not very plausible that these chemicals can get into the ECS system of the a/c from the outside. A good lot of it vanishes already in the engines where the bleed air is won (unless F22 gets it's air from somewhere else, can't find a schematic of the ECS). And the remaining amounts should be held back by the NBC protection system.
An example on how such a system can work:
NBC Protection Subsystem for the Sentinel Mk1 Aircraft
http://safeeurope.com/media/3423/richard_holmes.pdf
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