The mortar's can provide firesupport when you need it fast.. and the crew doesn't have fly back to base for refuelling or rearming. And you don't need a mortarspotter to call in fire. Anyone with a map(and the knowless of where you are on that map) can call in fires.. but a mortarspotter would of course be nice to have(if the fire need adjustment).
Look how fast this crew fire their rounds in Fallujah..
Could have made a huge differens at Super 6-4's crashsite.. the two Delta snipers defending the helicopter might have been more lucky?
I know that US have used combined arms in urban enviroment back in the past. But that has mainly been after realising that the light forces holding the city needed heavy firepower support. A uparmoured Humwee with TOW misssiles can deliver a heavy punch.. But a gun that can deliver the same punch with a much higher fire rate is of course better. The US army was smart to create SBCT's.. Almost perfect for urban AOR's IMO.
If you think of the operation as serving a high risk arrest warrant (which is what the mission really was) as opposed to a straight up combat raid, it answers some questions also. Additionally, I'm not sure IDF assets were even available. The US mission in Somalia was completely different than the later combat operations in Iraq. Complete different mission, complete different scope.
As for the snipers, I don't know that they would have been any more 'lucky' if they had mortars on call or not. I'm not even sure they knew where they were went they hit the ground, and to call in and adjust fire would have removed one of them from the trigger of their weapon for a good part of the battle, never mind the response time/TOT may not have made a difference.
There was a fire support plan. The gunships.
sorry i had to enquire this from you guys i am just an amature military enthusiast but i just want to ask this how effective will motar be in an urban setting when a guy is stopping your convoy by taking shots at you from second floor of a seventh storey building?
That's awesome. I don't know why you keep referencing Fallujah, it had very little in common with the raid in Mogadishu.Look how fast this crew fire their rounds in Fallujah..
How? I think the only guys on the ground who knew exactly where that Crash site was was the crew and the two snipers. You can't provide effective fire support if you lack knowledge of the location of both friendly and enemy units. Because of the limited distance one can often see in an urban environment, a 40mm grenade launcher is, in my opinion, a preferable choice.Could have made a huge differens at Super 6-4's crashsite.. the two Delta snipers defending the helicopter might have been more lucky?
Light forces holding the city? The U.S. Army made extensive use of combined arms assaults in both the Pacific and Europe during WWII. By combined, I mean air support including everything up to heavy bombers (more frequently ground attack fighters), extensive use of artillery, armor and infantry.I know that US have used combined arms in urban enviroment back in the past. But that has mainly been after realising that the light forces holding the city needed heavy firepower support. A uparmoured Humwee with TOW misssiles can deliver a heavy punch.. But a gun that can deliver the same punch with a much higher fire rate is of course better. The US army was smart to create SBCT's.. Almost perfect for urban AOR's IMO.
I don't understand the comparison between a TOW and a mortar, they were designed for two entirely different purposes.
Having spent 6 months patrolling them, I can tell you that the streets of Mogadishu aren't laid out in a nice neat western european manner.
I suggest you stay away from making definative, generalised and sweeping statements about situations, times and places that you weren't actually involved in.
I went to Falluja after the 2nd push. I attended an Air support / cas class prior. For the assault Air was stacked in several layers, in a complex fire support plan. It was massively coordinated! The powerpoints were impressive... Use of Mortars at unit level according to briefing by Snipers at camp pendleton stated that mortars worked closely with Snipers and FOs. alot of the Air was above the maximum ordinate of the rounds thus it was free fire for mortars as long as you didnt lay on the increments and kept range close.
In mogadishu there was not much armor avail to use ( fall 1994)... Hell When I was there we had 8 hummers 4 of which where armored and a Duece and a half!. The Aussie SAS in the airport had 2 m113 and some pick up trucks... The nigerians had some armored cars and actually lost several to ambush outside the city.. This was Post Blackhawk down, and Fall of 1994. Our platoon had a 60 mm mortar but, it was only for use in our final defensive plan for our post.
Some things that need considering when using mortars in Urban environments like Mogadishu. Bare with me as its been a few years since I normally would have known these things and I was Limited in My dealings with the 11C community.
A Light, Airborne or Ranger company only has 2 M224 60mm Mortars in inventory and a 6 man section manning them under a SSG..
Danger Close is 200M from the bursting sheaf(typically linear) and the sustained rate of fire is only 20 RPM
IIRC there is no 81mm section at Bn Level in the Ranger Bn of 1993 timeframe, so the Bn is lmiited to 6 M224 total
Positioning- Where to emplace them. Not on rooftops, not on concrete directly, not inside buildings due to overpressure and weakened/damaged roofs/floors
Building Masking- heights of buildings may mask ability to hit intended targets
Magnetic inteference with compasses and aiming circle
Ammunition load. the company section does not carry itself enough ammuntion for more than an initial fire mission in light scenarios. Those rounds would be cross loaded throughout the company and need collecting at the SBF before the Assault elements LD.
the 60mm rounds ability to pentrate building roofs Not sure how good it would be while trying to keep mobs at Bay in tiny crowded streets and away from the helo.
Definite need of an experienced FO with eyes on to adjust fires.