Putin's Middle East Gambit

[Eagle9294]

Interesting development. I'm interested in seeing how this relationship between Russia and Israel evolves.

[Flamming_Python]

Python, why should Israel listen to Putin and his ideas if Russia won't listen to Israel's?

Also, Western domination near Islamist domination in terms of danger? Are you fkin high?

I'd say that Islamist domination is a far greater threat. At least if Assad is somehow replaced by a liberal, semi-democratic regime; it will be predictable and probably co-operate with Russia in security and so on. Of course it could be used later as part of an encirclement of Russia, if the West decides to ferment or support seperatism in Russia let's say; like what happened with Serbia. SO either way - it's not completely without danger.

And Iran is a tough nut to crack, and is the pivot of Russia and the PRC's anti-USA policy. Fair enough. So what happens when it falls?

Well we better make sure that it won't then. Sell/loan some heavy weapons, perhaps some Russian bases and so on. Ought to show 'em.

[Alfaares]

I'd say that Islamist domination is a far greater threat. At least if Assad is somehow replaced by a liberal, semi-democratic regime; it will be predictable and probably co-operate with Russia in security and so on. Of course it could be used later as part of an encirclement of Russia, if the West decides to ferment or support seperatism in Russia let's say; like what happened with Serbia. SO either way - it's not completely without danger.



Well we better make sure that it won't then. Sell/loan some heavy weapons, perhaps some Russian bases and so on. Ought to show 'em.

Doubt it ,

democracies don't cooperate with russia , afghanistan was liberated and they didn't welcome russia (i have nothing against russians here). But if the syrian regime falls it is on the hand very likely the egyptian scenario will recur. A year or two of media circus and then a theocracy like in egypt.

[sepheronx]

Doubt it ,

democracies don't cooperate with russia , afghanistan was liberated and they didn't welcome russia (i have nothing against russians here). But if the syrian regime falls it is on the hand very likely the egyptian scenario will recur. A year or two of media circus and then a theocracy like in egypt.

Afghanistan is far from being a democracy. Afghanistan is screwed once US leaves and everyone knows it, probably Karzai as well. They still bring in Russia gear for Afghanistan, so there is still some deals between the two (well, that is actually thanks to NATO that Russia still has dealings with Afghanistan). Democracies cooperate well with Russia, as examples are France, Greece and especially Turkey (Trade between Turkey and Russia is huge, and growing!). It is just how Russia still has a stigma attached to them regarding the past and many post soviet countries still have a chip on their shoulder regarding it. As time goes on, the pain will simply heal and Russia will be back to having normal relations with those countries.

Another example is India and their trade with Russia. India is a huge democracy.

Russia will just be used in a bad light though when it comes to Syria and the middle east because of the support for Assad. Russia is doing no justice for itself by continuing to support Assad while sitting on the side lines. They could have saved their image by sending peacekeepers but well, it is too late now.

[Alfaares]

Afghanistan is far from being a democracy. Afghanistan is screwed once US leaves and everyone knows it, probably Karzai as well. They still bring in Russia gear for Afghanistan, so there is still some deals between the two (well, that is actually thanks to NATO that Russia still has dealings with Afghanistan). Democracies cooperate well with Russia, as examples are France, Greece and especially Turkey (Trade between Turkey and Russia is huge, and growing!). It is just how Russia still has a stigma attached to them regarding the past and many post soviet countries still have a chip on their shoulder regarding it. As time goes on, the pain will simply heal and Russia will be back to having normal relations with those countries.

Another example is India and their trade with Russia. India is a huge democracy.

Russia will just be used in a bad light though when it comes to Syria and the middle east because of the support for Assad. Russia is doing no justice for itself by continuing to support Assad while sitting on the side lines. They could have saved their image by sending peacekeepers but well, it is too late now.

It is a democracy for now that the ISAF and the USA are controlling matters over there and what you say is flawed ,

it's like i say india (who you say is a democracy) is going to crumble down in its own excrement once the western economic growth slows down , which it certainly will in the upcoming years , and then they wont even have money to do business with russia who likes to sell goods double the price for mainly political reasons , so you see the same goes for afghanistan.

And i personally don't think much drastic will happen in afghanistan once ISAF leaves because the USA will remain still , it's easy math the soviets stayed in afghanistan for a bit longer than 10 years and the US currently is in a better position than the soviet union back then , so they will stay longer than that to support the new afghan government and to bomb the pashtun across the border.

[sepheronx]

It is a democracy for now that the ISAF and the USA are controlling matters over there and what you say is flawed ,

it's like i say india (who you say is a democracy) is going to crumble down in its own excrement once the western economic growth slows down , which it certainly will in the upcoming years , and then they wont even have money to do business with russia who likes to sell goods double the price for mainly political reasons , so you see the same goes for afghanistan.

And i personally don't think much drastic will happen in afghanistan once ISAF leaves because the USA will remain still , it's easy math the soviets stayed in afghanistan for a bit longer than 10 years and the US currently is in a better position than the soviet union back then , so they will stay longer than that to support the new afghan government and to bomb the pashtun across the border.

Russia never really sold anything for double the price excluding the Aircraft carrier due to them converting it from a Kirov to a full fledge aircraft carrier with a ski jump, something that is very hard to do. Next to that, they did not have the facility to do it so they had to re-tool and upgrade the existing one in St.Pete to do it. The aircrafts where actually sold for a very good price and a lot of it had to do with spare parts and weapon sales too. But that is a whole different story.

I will agree with you that once the western economies collapse, so will India's simply because countries like India and China rely on the consumption of the rest of the world in order to maintain a large manufacturing basis, and domestic one will not garner them nearly the income compared to exporting due to the high disparity between the rich and the poor in that country.

History has shown that it is very hard to bring together Afghanistan (the Brits and Soviets) and NATO wont do any better. Karzai will be disposed of by the Taliban once ISAF is gone, and will be replaced by another Taliban government (Pakistan is not helping at all). Afghanistan is nowhere near a democracy and will not be even when ISAF is gone. You cannot teach old dogs new tricks. Tribalism will simply get in the way.

[Ozzyjim]

It is a democracy for now that the ISAF and the USA are controlling matters over there and what you say is flawed

.

controlling matters? how is the heroin problem going ? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-RISEN-61.html

[Alfaares]

Russia never really sold anything for double the price excluding the Aircraft carrier due to them converting it from a Kirov to a full fledge aircraft carrier with a ski jump, something that is very hard to do. Next to that, they did not have the facility to do it so they had to re-tool and upgrade the existing one in St.Pete to do it. The aircrafts where actually sold for a very good price and a lot of it had to do with spare parts and weapon sales too. But that is a whole different story.

I will agree with you that once the western economies collapse, so will India's simply because countries like India and China rely on the consumption of the rest of the world in order to maintain a large manufacturing basis, and domestic one will not garner them nearly the income compared to exporting due to the high disparity between the rich and the poor in that country.

History has shown that it is very hard to bring together Afghanistan (the Brits and Soviets) and NATO wont do any better. Karzai will be disposed of by the Taliban once ISAF is gone, and will be replaced by another Taliban government (Pakistan is not helping at all). Afghanistan is nowhere near a democracy and will not be even when ISAF is gone. You cannot teach old dogs new tricks. Tribalism will simply get in the way.

What i was trying to imply is that russian exports are tied to the rest of the world , as opposed to the image you portray , and are in cooperation with the west and NATO members.

India got a growth for a number of vague reasons but when growth slows down in the west they 'll ignore india for good , too big of a population , too sluggish of a nation. Inida has been simply a showcase for the past couple of years.


As for afghanistan well i must say the approaches by NATO and the soviet union are much different , NATO spends good money over there and the ISAF girls are treating afghan kids in newly built state of the art hospitals ; of course as long as the taliban / pashtun who are the bargaining wing of the afghan population in general are fighting the americans in afghanistan and across the border with pakistan, they're not subdued anytime soon and if they are say in 10 years time , afghanistan will be another asian state like burma for example..

That's much different than what soviet union did ,, they merely exported communism there and the afghans simply didn't buy it. So i basically don't see how you can so easily compare the two.

[Alfaares]

controlling matters? how is the heroin problem going ? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-RISEN-61.html

I'm sure heroin is something the US is not very keen to meddle in , they don't want to mess with afghans' everyday lives that's for sure; the soviet union though might have had a different view on this.

[dinalt]

Russian interest is to keep Middle East on the verge of major war, but not actually starting it.

The reasons : Russia earns 50+% of its money by selling gas & oil and Middle East tensions rise the oil/gas prices up. Every dollar difference in oil price is billions of dollars difference for Russia.

Another factor : Russia supports Shia ( Syria, Iran ) to counter-balance its own troubles with Sunnis : Chechnya, Dagestan, A-stan and ex-Soviet republics bordering it.

[Alfaares]

Jeez , i didn't know russia could be manipulative like that . Could be true , however middle east could be turbulent for other reasons aswell, like other players than russia who imo want to keep the terrorists and fundamentalists busy killing each other so they won't threaten their national security.. That's of course my own opinion.

[sepheronx]

Russian interest is to keep Middle East on the verge of major war, but not actually starting it.

The reasons : Russia earns 50+% of its money by selling gas & oil and Middle East tensions rise the oil/gas prices up. Every dollar difference in oil price is billions of dollars difference for Russia.

Another factor : Russia supports Shia ( Syria, Iran ) to counter-balance its own troubles with Sunnis : Chechnya, Dagestan, A-stan and ex-Soviet republics bordering it.

Not quite. 50% of spending is thanks to oil and gas. And this conspiracy is quite silly. Thank you for the entertainment.

[Rubick]

As for afghanistan well i must say the approaches by NATO and the soviet union are much different , NATO spends good money over there and the ISAF girls are treating afghan kids in newly built state of the art hospitals

Except SU did all that.

That's much different than what soviet union did ,, they merely exported communism there and the afghans simply didn't buy it. So i basically don't see how you can so easily compare the two.

The only difference is a different product which making a generalizing statement (like you did )the afghans ain't buying either.

Russian interest is to keep Middle East on the verge of major war, but not actually starting it.

The reasons : Russia earns 50+% of its money by selling gas & oil and Middle East tensions rise the oil/gas prices up. Every dollar difference in oil price is billions of dollars difference for Russia.

Another factor : Russia supports Shia ( Syria, Iran ) to counter-balance its own troubles with Sunnis : Chechnya, Dagestan, A-stan and ex-Soviet republics bordering it.

Ah, more stupidity.

[sepheronx]

Except SU did all that.

History is pretty much forgotten quite easily. Especially on what side you look at it.

The only difference is a different product which making a generalizing statement (like you did )the afghans ain't buying either.

He forgot to add that because of the SU, Afghanistan had a large chemical production facilities and oil transit line that accounted for about 60% of their GDP

Ah, more stupidity.

If you read most western news press, you will get to know that it is the same rhetorics about Russia and their economy and their diabolical schemes.

[Ataman]

Russian interest is to keep Middle East on the verge of major war, but not actually starting it.

The reasons : Russia earns 50+% of its money by selling gas & oil and Middle East tensions rise the oil/gas prices up. Every dollar difference in oil price is billions of dollars difference for Russia.

Interesting "theory", but I don't agree. Actually, the US cause more tensions there. The Iraq War had a pretty strong (and in Russian POV positive) effect on oil prices.

Another factor : Russia supports Shia ( Syria, Iran ) to counter-balance its own troubles with Sunnis : Chechnya, Dagestan, A-stan and ex-Soviet republics bordering it.

Now that's just BS. Nobody cares about Shia/Sunni in general. Most don't even know the difference. But you can't deny the fact that Islamic terrorism is pretty much a Sunni/Wahhabi thing.