UK hospitals 'letting patients die to save money’

[shermbodius]

Sherm are you hopped up on goofballs again?

Not at the moment.

[Corrupt]

I am still waiting for someone to explain how thousands of patients who cannot give consent being 'helped along the path' without the consent or even knowledge of their families is a good thing. Anyone?

I'm waiting for some evidence that this is standard practice or widespread? It certainly goes against my recent interactions with NHS end of life care.

If the study is accurate, the problem is not the protocol itself but how it is being applied (a point you both obviously missed). The issue is *notifying family before implementing the protocol*. Do you actually wish to defend the practice of not doing so?

You are aware that many people put on this pathway are compos mentis and therefore capable of making the decision for themselves?

[Steak-Sauce]

So the study by the Royal College of Physicians is just a big lie because some guy on the internet (that would be you) does not like what it says? Tell you what; if you want to refute what the study says, how about you provide some actual evidence and facts, instead of accompanying HS in a chorus of meaningless denials and insults?

If the study is accurate, the problem is not the protocol itself but how it is being applied (a point you both obviously missed). The issue is *notifying family before implementing the protocol*. Do you actually wish to defend the practice of not doing so?

Did you even bother to read the article, the doctors' letter, and check what's up with these (rather shady..) organizations the doctors belong to (some even in chairman positions)?

Their agenda, coupled with your angst of a "socialist", patient killing future Obamacare paints a really nice picture of you. Interestingly, a search for "Liverpool Care Pathway" on the homepage of the Royal College of Physicians itself (!) showed that various reports and statements on their site actually approve of the LCP (!!) and strongly recommend the LCP as practise for terminally ill patients (!!!).

Why again should the RCP recommend the LCP, when the latter is killing thousands of patients without the consent of their relatives? Oh wait..

91% of all patients had written prescriptions available for the five key symptoms (pain, agitation, respiratory tract secretions, nausea and vomiting and breathing difficulties) that may develop in the last hours or days of life so that there is no delay in responding to a symptom if it occurs following an assessment. In some trusts this was achieved in 100% of all patients.

Again: Do you have first-hand experience with terminally ill patients and their relatives, Ought Six? A simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice. (Yes, I have.)

[armored_diplomacy]

Papers making up sensational headlines, so as stupid people get all wound-up.... who'd have thought it.

Tens of thousands of patients with terminal illnesses are placed on a “death pathway” to help end their lives every year. However, in a letter to The Daily Telegraph, six doctors warn that hospitals MAY be using the controversial scheme to reduce strain on hospital resources.



It seems to be nothing more than a Christian organization complaining about assisted suicide etc.

Let me help you with some reading:

http://www.liv.ac.uk/mcpcil/liverpool-care-pathway/

Damn those absolute bastards at Marie Curie Cancer Trust, and the leading experts at the University of Liverpool... for their success at developing a structure for improving the quality of life for people in their final days.

^^ I´m taking post-graduated classes here about health systems and everybody has good words about the UK´s health system.

If you are Unemployed you get Medicaid, so you are wrong. http://www.medicaid.gov/
In addition IIRC it is against the law to deny medical care to the indigent, even Illegal Aliens get access to medical care.

Simply not true.

I can tell that a close relative, 48 years old, who has never earned a dollar in their life and never had any type of insurance has run up, by my guesstimation well over a million dollars in medical expenses and counting. They’ve been on death’s door several times due to accidents and illness and there was never any question about receiving treatment. As a matter of fact, I’m taking them to the hospital tomorrow for some more tests, compliments of that cheap, evil US of A government.

Edit: They have been getting extremly expensive treatment for an ongoing, but not life threatning condition and will need treatment for the rest of their life.

Thanks a lot @LD and @Skyeye for both link and info.
I´m surprised - and shocked, considering who´s telling that - by the ammount of BS spread about the medic care in the US over here; next time they talk about it I´ll leave the classroom.

[Ought Six]

I'm waiting for some evidence that this is standard practice or widespread? It certainly goes against my recent interactions with NHS end of life care.

Loved ones not always told their relative is on controversial 'death pathway'

NHS doctors are failing to inform up to half of families that their loved ones have been put on a scheme to help end their lives, the Royal College of Physicians has found.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...h-pathway.html

----------

You are aware that many people put on this pathway are compos mentis and therefore capable of making the decision for themselves?

Wow! What is so hard to understand about this sentence?

If the study is accurate, the problem is not the protocol itself but how it is being applied (a point you both obviously missed). The issue is *notifying family before implementing the protocol*.

[Corrupt]

Loved ones not always told their relative is on controversial 'death pathway'

450,000 people a year die in the UK in hospitals or under NHS care. About 130,000 of those are on the LCP when they pass away. Loved ones are not always told, because mistakes are made or because doctors think they know best. However for the overwhelming majority of people there is excellent and informed end of life care.

Thats certainly the case in the three occasions I've witnessed it for a relative since 2006.

[Ought Six]

Did you even bother to read the article, the doctors' letter, and check what's up with these (rather shady..) organizations the doctors belong to (some even in chairman positions)?

Did you even bother to read the article, since it states the point I raised comes from a Royal College of Physicians study, not from those doctors?
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Their agenda, coupled with your angst of a "socialist", patient killing future Obamacare paints a really nice picture of you.

Finally! Now I see why your knee is jerking so violently. Although I never used the word 'socialist' or mentioned Obamacare anywhere in this thread, you are warping this news item about a single point into a broad condemnation of the NHS as a socialist entity, and an attack on Obamacare. Stick to what I actually say, instead of what the cartoons running in your head tell you I 'really mean'.
----------

Interestingly, a search for "Liverpool Care Pathway" on the homepage of the Royal College of Physicians itself (!) showed that various reports and statements on their site actually approve of the LCP (!!) and strongly recommend the LCP as practise for terminally ill patients (!!!). Why again should the RCP recommend the LCP, when the latter is killing thousands of patients without the consent of their relatives? Oh wait..

Since you seem a bit resistant to reading the written word on the page today, perhaps I can help you out again.

So the study by the Royal College of Physicians is just a big lie because some guy on the internet (that would be you) does not like what it says? Tell you what; if you want to refute what the study says, how about you provide some actual evidence and facts, instead of accompanying HS in a chorus of meaningless denials and insults?

If the study is accurate, the problem is not the protocol itself but how it is being applied (a point you both obviously missed). The issue is *notifying family before implementing the protocol*. Do you actually wish to defend the practice of not doing so?

Maybe this will finally allow you to read what I am actually saying, instead making up false 'things I said'.
----------

Again: Do you have first-hand experience with terminally ill patients and their relatives, Ought Six? A simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice. (Yes, I have.)

Irrelevant, but yes.

[Corrupt]

Although I never used the word 'socialist' or mentioned Obamacare anywhere in this thread, you are warping this news item about a single point into a broad condemnation of the NHS as a socialist entity, and an attack on Obamacare. Stick to what I actually say, instead of what the cartoons running in your head tell you I 'really mean'.

Let's be honest, given your posting agence and use of phrases like "government run hospitals", it's not tricky to read between the lines.

[Ought Six]

450,000 people a year die in the UK in hospitals or under NHS care. About 130,000 of those are on the LCP when they pass away. Loved ones are not always told, because mistakes are made or because doctors think they know best. However for the overwhelming majority of people there is excellent and informed end of life care.

Thats certainly the case in the three occasions I've witnessed it for a relative since 2006.

And your point is? Does that change this statement:

NHS doctors are failing to inform up to half of families that their loved ones have been put on a scheme to help end their lives, the Royal College of Physicians has found.

So is this acceptable to you? Or are you claiming it is false? A straight answer would be appreciated.

[Ought Six]

Let's be honest, given your posting agence and use of phrases like "government run hospitals", it's not tricky to read between the lines.

All hospitals and health care systems have problems. This is a valid problem being exposed. I made no broad condemnation of NHS anywhere in this thread. You two *assumed* that, and swarmed in with a knee-jerk defense of the NHS instead of merely commenting upon a perfectly valid criticism of a specific practice. The problem lies with you two, not I.

[Corrupt]

So is this acceptable to you? Or are you claiming it is false? A straight answer would be appreciated.

If that is the case, it would be unaccetable to me. I doubt it's true though. I'm not denying that it happens, however I don't believe it's anywhere near as widespread as the paper would like us to believe. Without reading the audit myself and examining their research methods I couldn't say for sure though.

All hospitals and health care systems have problems. This is a valid problem being exposed. I made no broad condemnation of NHS anywhere in this thread. You two *assumed* that, and swarmed in with a knee-jerk defense of the NHS instead of merely commenting upon a perfectly valid criticism of a specific practice. The problem lies with you, not I.

Noone claimed the NHS was without problems. I'd be the first to name some. However your general disdain for our socialst ways and/or Obamacare is hardly undocumented. You're the one taking a shocking headline at face value because it suits your posting agenda.

[Ought Six]

Double post

[Ought Six]

If that is the case, it would be unaccetable to me. I doubt it's true though. I'm not denying that it happens, however I don't believe it's anywhere near as widespread as the paper would like us to believe. Without reading the audit myself and examining their research methods I couldn't say for sure though.

Google not working for you today? I provided evidence, and all you can do is dismiss it out of hand. You have provided *nothing*. I think you can see why I some might dismiss your viewpoint as being based in self-serving fact-free opinion. Sorry to be blunt, but there it is.
----------

Noone claimed the NHS was without problems. I'd be the first to name some. However your general disdain for our socialst ways and/or Obamacare is hardly undocumented. You're the one taking a shocking headline at face value because it suits your posting agenda.

This is just utter bullsh1t. I am taking a cite of a scientific study by a major newspaper at face value. You keep trying to distort my position while at the same time providing zero facts and evidence of your own. You are the one who is pursing their agenda in the face of contrary facts here.

[Corrupt]

Google not working for you today? I provided evidence, and all you can do is dismiss it out of hand. You have provided *nothing*. I think you can see why I some might dismiss your viewpoint as being based in self-serving fact-free opinion. Sorry to be blunt, but there it is.

Surprisingly I have better things to do than search for and read an audit of the NHS. Unless you're going to claim you've found and read the document, examined their survery methods etc, we've reached an impasse. You believe the article to be true (or at least give that impression) I believe it to be highly exaggerated.

This is just utter bullsh1t. I am taking a cite of a scientific study by a major newspaper at face value. You keep trying to distort my position while at the same time providing zero facts and evidence of your own. You are the one who is pursing their agenda in the face of contrary facts here.

You seriously expect me to believe that you, with your well known opinions on socialism, welfare states, government health systems, etc, choose to repeatedly post sensationalist horror stories about such systems in foreign countries from a position of benign objectivity?

[sepheronx]

This is the same **** that Ought six was going on about with the Canadian health care system. Agenda anyone?