Having spent four years and two combat deployments as a grunt, I shudder to think of fighting alongside the kind of indifferent, selfish, and self-involved people I went to high school and college with. I'll stick to a volunteer military, thanks.
BRILLIANT!!!! you should be a Nine star admiral of the army.Originally Posted by deagle
Give a choice of combat or Non combat. Hmmmm what would someone taken into service against their will likely choose?
Group A about to be dropped into the Kunar valley for 6 months of patrolling and ambushes with whatever they have on their back with supplies dropped to them.
Group B PX Guards and TOCRATS at Kabul in reflective belts
I don't know for the US (AFAIK Viet-Nam was the last time drafties were sent to war???) but in France conscription was dropped more than ten years ago on both political (electoral) and practical grounds. I explain :
- the draft time was only 10 months (12 months until the 90ies, execpt for voluntary long service which was 24 months and voluntary reserve officers 15 months) and training a soldier to modern warfare in only ten month was impossible so drafties were often used for works that professional soldiers didin't want to do (like cleaning the rooms or washing service vehicles) or sometimes they were just ignored.
- there were many exemptions so if you didn't want to do your service ther was plenty opportunities if you knew the good person or if you had children or if you had a master's degree and volunteer to cooperate in african countries (with a full pay not the money pocket given to conscripts!) or even if you found a job beginning before your conscription duty.
- On the precedent ground the conscription became unpopular... and french people (even leftists) weren't afraid of a professionnal army like before (1960 putsch in Algeria was driven by professional soldiers and the concript units refused to follow them and this was a major element which made the plot fail).
- and marginaly : in the last years a growing minority of men found unjust that women who were granted equal rights in all domains according to 80/90's reformed french law (especialy work and familial law) weren't subject to conscription (women should volunteer to be drafted).
But on the other hand :
- the once very strong link between french people and the military faded away. It is currently not broken but it's a point of concern for the heads of our armed forces and some of our politicians (I don't think it's a problem within the Us, american seems to support their armed forces but it's the problem that point Mc Chrystal). Today every french college student (both boys and girls) are required to spend only one day with military people explaining to them the role of the armed forces and the careers they offer (Journée d'appel à la Préparation à la Défense).
- there was another aspect : the french national identity was built by the public mandatory school and by the national conscription which was supposed to mix people together and sometimes to meke them fight shoulder to shoulder. In fact, the reality was not so idealistic : some regiments were localy recruited and so regrouped together people of same geographical and social origins (peasants, white collars...) , nearly all civilian sailors were drafted in the navy... I don't know what the situation on these subjects is in the USA...
But today returning to conscription seems an utopy as you can't force a man (and even more a woman) to fight and what do you think the public opinion will say if drafted, who didn't wanted to go to war, were killed in Afgahnistan? Good Luck to the government... The case was different when the existence of the nation was threatened. Conscription is dead in most of occidental countries for the best and the worst. The last survivance are the nordic/swiss militias and event those are recruited on voluntary basis (except in Swizerland but event there it become every year more unpopular.).
Too true. I take a professional military every time.
Having served with conscripts who were, prior to induction, the same type of indifferent, selfish and self involved people you describe....I can verify that 99% of them, can and do turn into good soldiers when exposed to the military life. But, I am sure I could never convince you or others of this.
Do I detect a good bit of preconcieved notions about conscripts?
Just as there are a few bad apples in conscripts, there are some also in volunteers and in the population as a whole.
Last edited by commanding; 07-14-2012 at 02:17 PM. Reason: deleted word "in" not reqd.
You guys have much more real experience than I do.
But, my experience was as a conscript that we who were from unit that you had to apply, werent really that much different from the regular units. People dont really know anything about it before they go there. My experience is that many of those who went in with an attitude that they would make a career out of it, ended up being slackers and some of those who didnt think much of it at start, ended up staying. Of course there were also those who had great motivation from the beginning and made a career there.
This is not a comment for conscription in US, i think its a stupid idea.
Were I live, draft worked quite well in turning some guys into more responsible and mature persons - while some of the volunteers absolutely lacked the right attitude.
However, conscription only makes sense when it is truly equal - i.e. when you cannot avoid it other than by doing alternative service - and when it is adequately designed. I did my ten months with the German Army and, lets put it that way, shudder to think of being referred to as "combat ready".
I think a government should reserve the possibility to instute a draft in times of looming war, but in peace time it is not necessary.
This was true in my experience also. I know some who were conscripted who did stay in the service once they were in, and made a 20 year career of it. I considered it myself, and might have, except I found out the MOS I was wanting to do, I could have rose no higher in rank than about an E-7 at the time. One of my good friends stayed in for a career, and he was smart to do so! He retired with benefits after 20 years, and I was still working for another 20 in the civilian sector.
Hehe, and why's that?
Our forum thrives on hate the way mammal babies thrive on milk and Shermbodius thrives on cheap whiskey and Dukes of Hazard re-runs.Well I hope you are proud of yourself for fanning the flames of hatred that endangers the very core of this forum.
Uhm... is there something wrong with that. Cletus?
Just the cheap whiskey....Buy something better than Old Crow.Uhm... is there something wrong with that. Cletus?
They have some "Military Special brand" whiskey I can get at the PX for $14.00 US for 1/2 gallon! Had a few nips last night....er most of the week.
I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be doing much work when under the command of the creator of the Jehovah Witness float in the 2012 Amsterdam Gay Pride parade would be a pretty fun squad leader to have.Hehe, and why's that?
I remember watching a Nat Geo doc on the Second Gulf War/invasion of Iraq, and a veteran was talking to his worried new members as they were crossing into Iraq that they wouldn't be good soldiers or would be terrible and even die. What he said to comfort them has kind of stuck with me, he said something like "War is one of those unique things in the world. You don't have to have done it before to find out you were made for it."
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