LCSs and Frigates; Rethinking the Concept

[Ought Six]

I know that (though it varies considerably between operating environments), but it doesn't put an LCS hull at a disadvantage compared to a contemporary MCMV. In fact, it puts it at an advantage due to the focus on a platform based concept.

I've read the thread. As has Halidon and Elbs, and yet there seems to be little sympathy with your suggestions. the fact is that a new concept was needed to meet the current and perceived threat.
That necessitates a modular, platform based approach.

I think it has been made plain on this and other LCS threads that the module-swapping idea as implemented on the LCS has failed miserably, and these ships will in fact effectively become single-purpose dedicated vessels. That blows your whole 'modular' argument out of the water. So for those set up as minesweepers, we now have minesweepers that cost ~700 million each. That strikes me as one of the most obscene program failures in U.S. naval history. Well, I guess we can take pride in having the highest-speed minesweepers in the world. We will win the minesweeper drag races for sure!

As for 'sympathy for my suggestions', a debate is not a popularity contest for ideas.

[memfisa]

I'm giving you figures directly from a Congressional Budget Office paper on LCS and NSC. An Avenger minesweeper came in at $260 million. The Huitfeldts were built in a commercial shipyard, with blocks built in Baltic countries - that's why they're relatively cheap. You know as well as I do that it would be political suicide for Congress to buy American warships built overseas.

The idea of a $250-$300 million USN frigate is a fantasy.

Considering a Canadian Halifax class frigate built in the 80's and 90's had an average production cost of $424 million per ship, i totally agree that cost is a fantasy if the USN were to build something of it's nature with modern technology

The end result would be a mini-Burke

Oh and during the production cycle the manufacturers switch to a modular construction technique to reduce the cost

[happyslapper]

I think it has been made plain on this and other LCS threads that the module-swapping idea as implemented on the LCS has failed miserably, and these ships will in fact effectively become single-purpose dedicated vessels. That blows your whole 'modular' argument out of the water. So for those set up as minesweepers, we now have minesweepers that cost ~700 million each. That strikes me as one of the most obscene program failures in U.S. naval history. Well, I guess we can take pride in having the highest-speed minesweepers in the world. We will win the minesweeper drag races for sure!

As for 'sympathy for my suggestions', a debate is not a popularity contest for ideas.

The modular idea has specifically not been implemented. There are no modules, only the ships. As I said earlier, it's less than half the project we currently have available to look at.

It's not 'my' argument. Its the inevitable direction that advanced navies are turning towards.

Minesweeper, NGS, LAD, insertion, transport, surveillance, etc etc..
$700M is an obscene amount of money, but it doesn't put paid to the concept. Implementing multiple functions in a single, high-performance hull is one way to solve the conundrum that governments and navies face.
Get that dollar figure down to the intended price, then you've got a fleet with a huge flexibility.

The back-room stuff has failed... thus far. Had there been a coherent and achievable plan to get the logistics and hardware to match the ships, you and everyone else would be cooing over the LCS. I have absolutely zero doubt.

[JasonC]

WOW so are the Burkes going to totally repace the Tico's?

Flight III Burks are replacing the Ticos. First Flight III will be ship DDG-122.

[Ought Six]

Flight III Burks are replacing the Ticos. First Flight III will be ship DDG-122.

Are not the Zumwalts intended to replace some of the Ticos?

[Ought Six]

Had there been a coherent and achievable plan to get the logistics and hardware to match the ships, you and everyone else would be cooing over the LCS. I have absolutely zero doubt.

I love it when people tell me 'what I think'.

[Alpheus]

Are not the Zumwalts intended to replace some of the Ticos?

What, all three of 'em?

[Elbs]

I think it has been made plain on this and other LCS threads that the module-swapping idea as implemented on the LCS has failed miserably, and these ships will in fact effectively become single-purpose dedicated vessels. That blows your whole 'modular' argument out of the water.

You're being disingenuous here. The Navy is using LCS now to work out the concept of operations and figure out how to best crew the ships, and the benefits/drawbacks of having multiple crews for given tasks. Swapping modules over a few days? Prohibitively expensive. Swapping over a few weeks/months? Completely doable.

[happyslapper]

I love it when people tell me 'what I think'.

Sorry what?

Who wouldn't love to have a navy with ships capable of turning their hand to executing highly complex tasks, in quick order, with a single hull, in what is the most difficult operating environment for a modern navy.

You're telling me that you wouldn't be bowled over? Perhaps you'd still long for single role ships which would inevitably be unavailable either through limited hull numbers, procurement cost, operating cost, or manning issues

You clearly can't understand the issues facing modern navies, and can't understand the premise or objective of the LCS as a concept.

[Ought Six]

Modular ship systems? I have repeatedly expressed support for that idea. You seem to be trting to maintain a strawman idea that I am against it. You will have to go forward with that pretense alone, as I will no longer be participating in that BS.

Burkes taking over the old roles that frigates used to fill? Extravagant in the extreme, but okay, whatever.

My issue is an entire class of warships that lack adequate defensive armaments, yet are expected to go into harm's way. With as few hulls as our Navy has, it seems certain that sooner or later these ships will be caught alone and not be able to survive, and a lot of our people will die as a resullt. If they just added to the existing LCSs a Mk.48 two-cell shortie VLS box on each side of the hangar for 16 ESSMs, I would be satisfied that at least they could defend themselves against several AShMs or a flight of Su-30s; the kind of forces so many third world nations have.

[Halidon]

Are not the Zumwalts intended to replace some of the Ticos?

No, if you want to be really reductive about it a more accurate statement would be that the baseline Zumwalt was intended to replace the Iowas as platforms for Naval Surface Fire Support (via the AGS) with additional missions (such as ASW, SOF support, and 'Land Attack') added. A Zumwalt "Flight II" with an emphasis on AAD and BMD is possible as a Tico replacement, and would require few changes beyond the addition of AMDR, but has not been greenlit.

[xav]

Bluefin Robotics Completes Knifefish SMCM UUV Design Review

Knifefish will be a critical part of the Littoral Combat Ship Mine Warfare mission package and will provide the fleet mine warfare commander and sailors with enhanced mine-hunting capability by addressing the Navy's need to reliably detect and identify proud and buried mines in high-clutter environments.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index...sk=view&id=512