A Land Without Guns

[Mordoror]

Would any of those numbers change the 2nd Amendment? Didn't think so.

That was not the point
The point was : if there is more stolen weapons than smuggled then that means that they are too easilly available (easy access, lack of safety, too broad distribution, all of that ?)
if there are more illegaly sold weapons, that means that there are a lot of criminal retailers or dealers outside
If there are more smuggled weapons that means that the borders are not safe enough
For all cases that means that at the federal level and state level some things can be implemented to reduce the bloodshed as much as possible

[gresh]

I think either you got lied to by the guys, or there is a big BS flag in your future. The way I understand it, and Hollis or other guys who have or have had FFLs may clarify, but all FFL dealers are subject to inspections by the ATF, and I doubt stolen guns and hand grenades would get past the ATF inspections. I do not disagree that "illegal" guns are around some...in fact I suspect they are more common in places where crime is high or local gun laws make firearms ownership impossible or difficult.

FFL dealers are subject to many very complex rules, record keeping, inspections etc.

Oh, I didn't even know the guy. I just went to a party one weekend and ended up seeing a ton of illegal weapons that I really didn't want to see. The guy probably was BS'ing my friend, he was a lot older.

[Mordoror]

As if criminals are a modern invention that came with fire arm development.

Off course not
But ancient criminals were not able to kill or hurt tenth of people at once. That's the problem here. With modern weapons a single guy can do as much harm as tenth with cold steel knifes/swords. That's the main issue; That's not a judgement, just a cold fact and that's what raises this kind of topic everytime there is a mass shooting.

PS : the fact is also that in ancient times people were more regular with violence, meaning that turning on a street corner and finding a throat sliced body in Subere area in Rome or old "quartier des Halls" in medieval Paris was not shocking for anybody. Now it is and that's also a part of the issue

[Jurinko]

I read Don Burgett book. He is a former 101st trooper. They liberated Eindhoven in Holland and spoke with locals. Locals described as in 1940, a German para dropped nearby, then got up, produced a pistol and herded all civilians back home.
"Hey, why did not you shoot him?" some trooper asked.
"It is forbidden to own a gun here," was a reply.

"What a crazy country, one man with pistol directing the whole town!" Burgett's final thought

[Einhander]

I thought the whole topic was not about criminals, but psycos/mentals and school kids.

[Laconian]

Off course not
But ancient criminals were not able to kill or hurt tenth of people at once. That's the problem here. With modern weapons a single guy can do as much harm as tenth with cold steel knifes/swords. That's the main issue; That's not a judgement, just a cold fact and that's what raises this kind of topic everytime there is a mass shooting.

PS : the fact is also that in ancient times people were more regular with violence, meaning that turning on a street corner and finding a throat sliced body in Subere area in Rome or old "quartier des Halls" in medieval Paris was not shocking for anybody. Now it is and that's also a part of the issue

With the right know how and enough ill intent someone can do way more damage for a lot less money with items purchased from any hardware/home help store and a gas station than they can with a firearm.

[KoTeMoRe]

Good point. Firearms should be tax exempt then,

But doesn't "owning" infer buying? If you can't buy it, then you also can't own it.

But you can, it simply will cost you a limb. Think about guns as Ferraris...

[Odd]

Off course not
But ancient criminals were not able to kill or hurt tenth of people at once. That's the problem here. With modern weapons a single guy can do as much harm as tenth with cold steel knifes/swords. That's the main issue; That's not a judgement, just a cold fact and that's what raises this kind of topic everytime there is a mass shooting.

PS : the fact is also that in ancient times people were more regular with violence, meaning that turning on a street corner and finding a throat sliced body in Subere area in Rome or old "quartier des Halls" in medieval Paris was not shocking for anybody. Now it is and that's also a part of the issue

Underestimating other methods of murder can be quite foolish. Firearms are not the most dangerous to humans, it is intelligence and the ability to exploit the weaknesses of fellow man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ber_of_victims

The body counts of serial killers are often higher than those of spree killers, but due to the slow and methodical actions of the serial killer(non/rare use of firearms) there is not as much media frenzy and emotional shock as that the haphazard and violent actions of the spree killer(firearms as weapon of choice usually).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer

[Spartan10k]

But you can, it simply will cost you a limb. Think about guns as Ferraris...

We don't have the protected right to own ferraris though.

[Mordoror]

With the right know how and enough ill intent someone can do way more damage for a lot less money with items purchased from any hardware/home help store and a gas station than they can with a firearm.

Agreed. However as you said it needs a right know how, what a spray and pray weapon doesn't need.

Underestimating other methods of murder can be quite foolish. Firearms are not the most dangerous to humans, it is intelligence and the ability to exploit the weaknesses of fellow man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ber_of_victims

The body counts of serial killers are often higher than those of spree killers, but due to the slow and methodical actions of the serial killer(non/rare use of firearms) there is not as much media frenzy and emotional shock as that the haphazard and violent actions of the spree killer(firearms as weapon of choice usually).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer

Agreed too however Serial killers are not the norm of the society. Moreover they are often deshumanized as "monsters" i.e nobody would say "i could have been him". That's not the case with spree killers that are often very discrete until entering in action (triggering then shock and misunderstanding).

However your last point is spot on too. That's the great amount of casualties in a short time that produces a social shock. Especially when happening in everyday's activities (schools, theatres, fast foods) because everybody can identifiate himself with the victims (saying it could have been me). On the other hand when you are talking about serial killers, people are often finding ways to deny that fact ("she shouldn't have walked alone in the dark so late, he should't have talken to strangers, he/she shouldn't have do hitchhiking etc etc"). The shock is still existing but indeed it is diluted by the fact that the amount of victims is rarely fully known, details are rarely fully released and the number of victims is distributed on a large timeframe

[Laconian]

Agreed. However as you said it needs a right know how, what a spray and pray weapon doesn't need.

It is easier to find out how than it is to buy a firearm legally as Holmes did.

[commanding]

The right is owning, taxation comes with it...does it not. As a matter of fact your firearm sales are ALREADY submitted to taxation at the source.

yes guns are taxed when you buy one, as is ammo. Of course money is taxed when you earn it also, and the gasoline is taxed to drive you to the gun store, and the auto is taxed that you drive in.

the point is that taxes can and are abused by politicians to achieve political goals (example: cigarette and tobacco tax). Generally egotistic politicians think they know what is best for us, than we do ourselves, ....how better to spend our money...and of course they do not .

Should the time come when legislation is passed authorizing unreasonably high taxes on ammo or firearms, you will see swift and bold action by US citizens to stop that legislation, and oust all legislators who voted for it.

[KoTeMoRe]

We don't have the protected right to own ferraris though.

Yes you do...

[budgie]

rest of it here: A Land Without Guns


Fire away and discuss.

Actually plenty of farmers and hunters in Hokkaido have guns. I never found Japan's gun laws to be particularly stricter than my native NZ.

[Spartan10k]

Yes you do...

Ferraris are a foreign car, foreign cars have been banned before in the past (through high tarrifs and I think some laws too). There is no __ Amendment that guarantees us the right to own and drive cars.