Palestinian villages face demolition to create IDF training ground

[J.Noah ה]

The entire crux of Shelata's arguments is that somehow a "national home" means something else, anything else than "nation state".

It is a bullsh!t argument, which basically amounts to trolling.

Yes, thats the vibe I got out of his piece. I just wanted to provide primary source documentation to prove our points. I highly doubt he will respond to my specific questions.

[KoTeMoRe]

A National Home under a Mandatory Power is tricky...but anyhow:

"The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory, to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 8, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

In bold and underlined what typically does not work well between a Nation State (sovereign entity) and a National Home under a Mandatory Power. This is akin to the Millet system under the Ottoman Empire.

[Kaplanr]

Nothing the Yishuv did prejudiced the existing non-Jewish communities. Can't say the same about the Mandatory Power; specifically the designation of 2/3 of the mandate as Trans-Jordan. Next in line would be the Mufti and Husseini clan. Being butt hurt over Jewish immigration isn't the result of prejudicial behavior.

[KoTeMoRe]

Nothing the Yishuv did prejudiced the existing non-Jewish communities. Can't say the same about the Mandatory Power; specifically the designation of 2/3 of the mandate as Trans-Jordan. Next in line would be the Mufti and Husseini clan. Being butt hurt over Jewish immigration isn't the result of prejudicial behavior.

I still fail to see the issue...the Mandatory power designs who stands who...not the Jewish communities. What is granted is a principle, not a structure, a map, or plan. Needless to say this has limited traction as a comprehensive source for a Jewish Nation-State.

[GB_FXST]

A National Home under a Mandatory Power is tricky...but anyhow:



In bold and underlined what typically does not work well between a Nation State (sovereign entity) and a National Home under a Mandatory Power. This is akin to the Millet system under the Ottoman Empire.

And your post does not change the fact that a National Home is to be a Nation State, as that nation state can and has not prejudiced the rights of existing non-Jewish communities.

[KoTeMoRe]

And your post does not change the fact that a National Home is to be a Nation State, as that nation state can and has not prejudiced the rights of existing non-Jewish communities.

But you could not have a Nation-State subordinated to a SN Mandatory power...and still cannot have a Nation State under UN Trustee power. You do understand that I suppose?

[GB_FXST]

but you could not have a nation-state subordinated to a sn mandatory power...and still cannot have a nation state under un trustee power. You do understand that i suppose?

sn?

.............

[KoTeMoRe]

Society of Nations - League of Nations.

ARTICLE 22.

To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League.The character of the mandate must differ according to the stage of the development of the people, the geographical situation of the territory, its economic conditions and other similar circumstances.Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.Other peoples, especially those of Central Africa, are at such a stage that the Mandatory must be responsible for the administration of the territory under conditions which will guarantee freedom of conscience and religion, subject only to the maintenance of public order and morals, the prohibition of abuses such as the slave trade, the arms traffic and the liquor traffic, and the prevention of the establishment of fortifications or military and naval bases and of military training of the natives for other than police purposes and the defence of territory, and will also secure equal opportunities for the trade and commerce of other Members of the League.There are territories, such as South-West Africa and certain of the South Pacific Islands, which, owing to the sparseness of their population, or their small size, or their remoteness from the centres of civilisation, or their geographical contiguity to the territory of the Mandatory, and other circumstances, can be best administered under the laws of the Mandatory as integral portions of its territory, subject to the safeguards above mentioned in the interests of the indigenous population.In every case of mandate, the Mandatory shall render to the Council an annual report in reference to the territory committed to its charge.The degree of authority, control, or administration to be exercised by the Mandatory shall, if not previously agreed upon by the Members of the League, be explicitly defined in each case by the Council.A permanent Commission shall be constituted to receive and examine the annual reports of the Mandatories and to advise the Council on all matters relating to the observance of the mandates.

[J.Noah ה]

A National Home under a Mandatory Power is tricky...but anyhow:



In bold and underlined what typically does not work well between a Nation State (sovereign entity) and a National Home under a Mandatory Power. This is akin to the Millet system under the Ottoman Empire.

The only legal purpose of the mandate was to carry out the orders of the Supreme Allies and create the Jewish State without cede or altering the legal title without the consent of the LoN.

[KoTeMoRe]

The only legal purpose of the mandate was to carry out the orders of the Supreme Allies and create the Jewish State without cede or altering the legal title without the consent of the LoN.

You really want to discuss that matter now? At NO POINT the Mandatory mentionned State, Sovereignty or division and cession of land.

An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration, to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist Organisation, so long as its organisation and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

Autonomous Province of Judea sounds really messy.

[GB_FXST]

But you could not have a Nation-State subordinated to a SN Mandatory power...and still cannot have a Nation State under UN Trustee power. You do understand that I suppose?

Yes; but, the source material you posted in post #83 and #85 provide the answer: trusteeship over the Jewish National Home until the Jews living in that National Home are ready for self governance or soverieignty.

... snip ...

The character of the mandate must differ according to the stage of the development of the people, the geographical situation of the territory, its economic conditions and other similar circumstances.Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.

... snip ...

... snip ...

The Zionist Organisation, so long as its organisation and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

... snip ...

Unless of course, you are going to adopt Shelata's line of argument that National Home is something other than a Nation State.

Society of Nations - League of Nations.

Thanks you for the clarification. I would have not figured out that acronym.

[KoTeMoRe]

Nope the Argument still stands...Trusteeship unlike Mandates do have a limit in time and scope (IE there was nothing you could do - bar terrorism and armed struggle to make the Mandate cease). Furthermore, again, the LoN/SN was never about making a state. It was typically an autonomous region. Transjordan compes to mind, it being a British Protectorate and all. Really it is simple...

Furthermore, the Jewish population of 1917 was not the one regarded by the Article 22. The Jewish population was specifically singled out by the Balfour declaration (San Remo docet) and most of the settling parties in what would become Palestine, were all regarded in the 1922 Order of mandate as *foreigners*.

So really, a National Home, under mandate cannot be a Nation-State. The Mandate was a cosy way to dress up the spoils of war and have the upper hand on the Arab world. While I am sure most ISraelis and Jews regard it as the act of foundation of their country, they should understand that everything staying stable, there was NEVER going to be a Jewish Nation-State in Palestine under the British Mandate. Therefore it makes little sense using it as reference (especially in a Land Claim issue).

[Dirtydiaper]

You have been making it clear enough in your posts.

Sort'a like you crying your guts out for the IOC suddenly not remebaaaawing the Munich? Please.

It shouldn't be up to debate but a lot of people, especially from your neck of the woods, seem to think so.

Now do tell me more about what Swedes have for prerogative on Israeli democracy. I'll need that laugh.

I'm arguing the legal standpoints because I'm arguing that the country is acting according to due process which is based on legality.

And that is why you are missing my whole point.

Sometimes you don't need to... but as I mentioned before, the benefit of the doubt is just for such instances.

Which is why you totally felt the urging need to bring it up, I guess.

I missed this, but yes: this predicament could have been avoided if Arafat accepted a deal that gave him 97% of the WB plus another 3% land swap all because he and his followers simply cannot come to term with the concept of Israel and compromise.

Firt of all, Arafath was a lying pice of sh*t that never looked over anything except his own house. That is probably also why he rejected the deal. Secondly; I can see no, none, zero relevance of Arafath's douchbaggery and these Palestinians potential fate, seeing as they are not Arafath.

[Climber]

So WTF is with this thread? is anybody still discussing the thread subject?????

Most of you are discussing just for the sake of it. you dont have all the relevant data, nor the will to read about this, and have a balanced opinion.

As In many countries, when someone made a settlement in the state property the judicial system decides what to do. Its how a democracy works. Now, if you are derailing the thread and discussing history or the right of Israel as a nation, then I fell the forum have come to a very low. As Dirtydiaper up here says

Sort'a like you crying your guts out for the IOC suddenly not remebaaaawing the Munich? Please.

Are you always troll like this?

This is out of control IMO.

[KoTeMoRe]

There is nothing to discuss anyway, so we gossip.