F-22 Fighter Loses $79 Billion Advantage in Dogfights:

[C.Puffs]

Although F-22 designers failed to be ahead of the curb with the HUD and no IRIS-T but on that front they were.

There is space for an IRST (and side arrays for the AESA) in the F-22. The IRST got the chop to save $$$$.

[MeiJoa]

Here's a question: If the EF is flying around with the Praetorian system up and running, won't that act as a giant "I'm over here" beacon in today's world of highly sensitive ESM suites?

Its only active when a threat is detected, one possibility is for example to jam radar guided missiles. Modern missiles switch to "home on jam" in that case, but the jammer antenna is not on the plane but towed in safe distance.

Nothing against a F-22 capabilities, but the Typhoon has some tricks up its sleeve...

[SpudmanWP]

In BVR, how is the threat detected?

[Mordoror]

In BVR, how is the threat detected?

Missile launch
Active radar emission (from the interceptor or a buddy if the interceptor wants to remain silent or an Airborne Early Warning)
Passive radar
LR IR systems
interception of coms beam

[Ought Six]

Missile launch
Active radar emission (from the interceptor or a buddy if the interceptor wants to remain silent or an Airborne Early Warning)
Passive radar
LR IR systems
interception of coms beam

There is LPI (low probability of intercept) RADAR, but I do not think that there is passive RADAR.

[Mordoror]

There is LPI (low probability of intercept) RADAR, but I do not think that there is passive RADAR.

You mean on the plane or as group installation ?
Because ground passives radars are on the way (i remember an article quoted even on this board) even if the technology may not mature enough yet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_radar
http://www.cassidian.com/en_US/web/g...ns%20invisible

[SpudmanWP]

Without the MAWS running, it will not see the launch. This is the problem with an active MAWS, damned if you do, damned if you don't

[Laworkerbee]

The military was the same a long time ago. Plan for the BVR battle and neglect dog fighting. Now it seems history is repeating itself.

At least the 22 has a gun this time.

[C.Puffs]

The military was the same a long time ago. Plan for the BVR battle and neglect dog fighting. Now it seems history is repeating itself.

At least the 22 has a gun this time.

Apples and oranges. How many modern militaries practice bayonet fighting regularly?

[James]

The U.S Military trains infantrymen to use bayonets, and I believe some Brits conducted a bayonet charge in Iraq and/or Afghanistan since 2003.

[GigantorX]

The military was the same a long time ago. Plan for the BVR battle and neglect dog fighting. Now it seems history is repeating itself.

At least the 22 has a gun this time.

I'm pretty sure the F-22 is far more maneuverable and lethal in WVR combat than an F-4 Phantom or even many other 4th Gen fighter planes.

[Laworkerbee]

Apples and oranges. How many modern militaries practice bayonet fighting regularly?

The one thing you constantly overlook while focusing on all the whiz bang technology is the fact that time and time again - Weapons systems capabilities are often curtailed by politics. One should not think that politics won't demand F22's close in for visual identification before engaging.

So it's not apples and oranges.

I'm pretty sure the F-22 is far more maneuverable and lethal in WVR combat than an F-4 Phantom or even many other 4th Gen fighter planes.

If that is the case then why is this article implying otherwise?

[Seiyuuki]

For the umpteenth time, I'll just leave this video here, 7:50 mark, U.S. Aggressors' pilots (F-15 / F-16) have done this sort of training before.

[C.Puffs]

The one thing you constantly overlook while focusing on all the whiz bang technology is the fact that time and time again - Weapons systems capabilities are often curtailed by politics. One should not think that politics won't demand F22's close in for visual identification before engaging.

So it's not apples and oranges.

Yes and no. AAMs have proven themselves in the 40 years since the Vietnam war where it was pretty much theory and tests before then. Today's HOBS WVR missiles have shown you do NOT want to fight in visual range if at all possible. For those times when it's unavoidable the F-22 still has a pair of AIM-9s and a gun. And there is no way in hell that the difference in subsonic manueverability between a Typhoon and F-22 (assuming the article is even accurate) is going to matter to an AIM-9X. We're talking differences so small that the pilot matters far more than the plane in those instances.

[Laworkerbee]

Yes and no. AAMs have proven themselves in the 40 years since the Vietnam war where it was pretty much theory and tests before then. Today's HOBS WVR missiles have shown you do NOT want to fight in visual range if at all possible. For those times when it's unavoidable the F-22 still has a pair of AIM-9s and a gun. And there is no way in hell that the difference in subsonic manueverability between a Typhoon and F-22 (assuming the article is even accurate) is going to matter to an AIM-9X. We're talking differences so small that the pilot matters far more than the plane in those instances.

I assume the 22 has an edge close in because I would think the plane has to be hard to lock onto with radar or infra red guided missiles?