F-22 Fighter Loses $79 Billion Advantage in Dogfights:

[Alpheus]

"lol, kill silhouettes from exercises?" doesn't exactly sound like you were aware of it

Yes, the question mark indicates it was news to me. So?

and "Whats next, silhouettes on their PC's for simulator kills" was directed at the German Typhoon pilots. A sarcasm smiley doesn't changes the fact.

I know who it was directed at. I wrote it. Again, so what?

I just told you that you were wrong. Anyways, nice backpaddling.

Wrong? How was I wrong, I wasn't claiming anything!

[Breakfast in Vegas]

I was under the impression the F-22 was on a whole other level compared to other Russian & Nato 4.5-5 gen fighters (guess not). With price to performance ratio the Typhoons are the best bang for your buck hands down.

LOL. Your reading comprehension and situational awareness fail you.

Do Pilots put up kill marks for other simulated kills? If not that People are putting up kill knotches for the F-22 is probably indicative of the reputation it has, so while 'questionable' I guess it is regarded as something to be particulary proud of

Yeah, I assume they take their claim with a grain of salt. It's lame nonetheless.

[C.Puffs]

Yep, totally uncommon.



Stop throwing rocks while sitting in a glass house!

The only ones who've done it are those who got Raptors. That alone says something.

[C.Puffs]

The F22 was simply designed to be a fighter for American's to get a hardon about ...

Mission accomplished.

[BlackZodiac]

LOL. Your reading comprehension and situational awareness fail you.Yeah, I assume they take their claim with a grain of salt. It's lame nonetheless.

I fail to see how reading comprehension and situational awareness comes into this, looks like someones emotions are getting in the way. The F-22 is still the most advanced & complex fighter aircraft out there, just not for the price.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

I fail to see how reading comprehension and situational awareness comes into this, looks like someones emotions are getting in the way. The F-22 is still the most advanced & complex fighter aircraft out there, just not for the price.

If your weapon is inefficient/inferior and you lose, it doesnt matter what you paid for it... it isnt money well spent. That's all I'm saying. 1 F22 is worth 4+ Eurofighter, that kind of analogy. A Eurofighter won't get the chance for a WVR fight and even if it did, the F22 is still very capable.

Of course if you are choosing between Eurofighter and some other aircraft other than F22 because you couldnt buy F22 if you wanted to, your purchase criteria are different.

I still contend however, and this supports your point, that the F22 will never shoot down an enemy aircraft in its service duration... I just don't think the US will go to war with an opponent that can challenge even F15s/F16s not to mention F22s/F35s. Their role is "reduced" to intimidation and deterrence.

[Xaito]

If your weapon is inefficient/inferior and you lose, it doesnt matter what you paid for it... it isnt money well spent. That's all I'm saying. 1 F22 is worth 4+ Eurofighter, that kind of analogy. A Eurofighter won't get the chance for a WVR fight and even if it did, the F22 is still very capable.

Of course if you are choosing between Eurofighter and some other aircraft other than F22 because you couldnt buy F22 if you wanted to, your purchase criteria are different.

I still contend however, and this supports your point, that the F22 will never shoot down an enemy aircraft in its service duration... I just don't think the US will go to war with an opponent that can challenge even F15s/F16s not to mention F22s/F35s. Their role is "reduced" to intimidation and deterrence.

if it cots 4x more is it 4x better?

[BlackZodiac]

If your weapon is inefficient/inferior and you lose, it doesnt matter what you paid for it... it isnt money well spent. That's all I'm saying. 1 F22 is worth 4+ Eurofighter, that kind of analogy. A Eurofighter won't get the chance for a WVR fight and even if it did, the F22 is still very capable.

Of course if you are choosing between Eurofighter and some other aircraft other than F22 because you couldnt buy F22 if you wanted to, your purchase criteria are different.

I still contend however, and this supports your point, that the F22 will never shoot down an enemy aircraft in its service duration... I just don't think the US will go to war with an opponent that can challenge even F15s/F16s not to mention F22s/F35s. Their role is "reduced" to intimidation and deterrence.

"If your weapon is inefficient/inferior and you lose, it doesnt matter what you paid for it."

Easy said as:

Paid more & loose
Paid less & loose

There are effective ways of paying less and gaining more, a modern "tested" example with results today would be I.E.D's.

"1 F22 is worth 4+ Eurofighter, that kind of analogy. A Eurofighter won't get the chance for a WVR fight and even if it did, the F22 is still very capable."

Running at 80% and you're at par with your mock up competitor which costs 1/4 of the price speaks vast margins when it comes to money - performance ratios.

Besides the unit cost alone the upkeep would be crippling and really what purpose does the F-22 serve when most of your enemies either don't have an air force or lack a competition against the regular F-16s in the current arsenal.

"Of course if you are choosing between Eurofighter and some other aircraft other than F22 because you couldnt buy F22 if you wanted to, your purchase criteria are different."

There were only three countries who were seriously interested in the F-22 (Japan, Israel and Australia) could have only afforded a very few. They were simply turned down in the end to enter bids on the F-35...

[Laworkerbee]

"If your weapon is inefficient/inferior and you lose, it doesnt matter what you paid for it." .

Bullshit, piloting is everything, the aircraft is second.

I'd take a US trained aviator in an obsolete F4 over some fluffed up Saudi in a superjet any day of the week.

[Mordoror]

Bullshit, piloting is everything, the aircraft is second.

I'd take a US trained aviator in an obsolete F4 over some fluffed up Saudi in a superjet any day of the week.

This
If you have both (good plane, good pilot) it is better of course
But a EF2000 in Saoudi hands or in RAF hands won't do the same
A rookie F22 pilot or a seasoned F22 pilot won't do the same

[Ought Six]

Bullshit, piloting is everything, the aircraft is second.

I'd take a US trained aviator in an obsolete F4 over some fluffed up Saudi in a superjet any day of the week.

I would say the pilot and the tactics used are everything. But that does not change the fact that given equally well-trained pilots, the F-22 would still have a clear advantage.

[BlackZodiac]

Bullshit, piloting is everything, the aircraft is second.

I'd take a US trained aviator in an obsolete F4 over some fluffed up Saudi in a superjet any day of the week.

Laworkerbee's words not mine, hence the quotations.

[IconOfEvi]

Things may change with a new administration. As Flagg pointed out, the more F-22s we build, the cheaper they get. We should be selling F-22s to Japan, Korea, Australia, Israel, and whichever other of our most trusted allies want them. That would mean more jobs for us and cheaper F-22s for the USAF. With a Repub Prez and Congress, that could well happen.

Yeah I don't think we need to be seeing PRC F-22 lookalikes anytime soon. Well more lookalike than the J-20 is anyways. p)

[trpilot6]

Not hearing much from US pilots about this, its been almost all from the german side. But today I did see this.

A pilot from the 3rd Wing involved w/ the engagment was contacted for comment. He stated: "I did review the HUD footage, a lot of gun shots from the F-22's to the Eurofighters and not a whole lot coming back."

The Commander of the 525th also admitted that the F-22's were under heavy "manoeuvring limitations".

So even under heavy manoeuvring restrictions the F-22's were, at worst, even w/ one of the best dogfighters on the planet? Whats the controversy here??

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Not hearing much from US pilots about this, its been almost all from the german side. But today I did see this.

A pilot from the 3rd Wing involved w/ the engagment was contacted for comment. He stated: "I did review the HUD footage, a lot of gun shots from the F-22's to the Eurofighters and not a whole lot coming back."

The Commander of the 525th also admitted that the F-22's were under heavy "manoeuvring limitations".

So even under heavy manoeuvring restrictions the F-22's were, at worst, even w/ one of the best dogfighters on the planet? Whats the controversy here??

Hence these comparisons are, as always, to be taken with a grain of salt.

Running at 80% and you're at par with your mock up competitor which costs 1/4 of the price speaks vast margins when it comes to money - performance ratios.

Dead is still dead. If you can afford the F22 (with all the upkeep and training) you take it.