F-22 Fighter Loses $79 Billion Advantage in Dogfights:

[eATS]

the other article talks about Raptor being designed for BVR fighting, dogfight is last chance anyway for any Fighter.

on top of that

Cassidian, the defence and security division of EADS, has developed what is known as "passive radar" that can locate even difficult-to-detect flying objects such as stealth aircraft, and that itself is practically undetectable.

[DasVivo]

The Phantom was initially designed without a gun because it was expected it would never get into a dogfight. The F-22 *is* designed to be able to dogfight.
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History is replete with examples where American planes that were less maneuverable were able to defeat aircraft that were more maneuverable and better dogfighters by using superior tactics. The Hellcat and the Zero, the Thunderbolt and the Bf-109, the Phantom and the MiG-21 and so on. Our pilots will use the F-22's great strengths and compensate for its weaknesses, as always.

While I agree somewhat it is very much 'simplified' to state it was simply tactics that did it, chronic fuel shortages, reduced training standards (In part because of the former) and other factors were part of it....
I agree though that the professionalism of US Pilots will make the best they can of the F-22s capabilities to offset any weaknesses and play its cards to the best possible.... That said I guess the enemy has a vote in such matters aswell

Exactly......nothing is perfect for every single imaginable role.

Agreed entirely, and when you compromise between mission statements you often compromise capabilities

A million dollar Bugatti Veyron could be cleaned up by a 20 year old rusty Hilux when it comes to taking out the rubbish......does it matter?

While one can do that it neither means it is sensible or the optimal design available for that task at hand, granted it may suffice for the role though

To me, the only thing noteworthy is the fact that factoring in the R&D costs for that bird the US should have built a bunch more of them to bring the unit cost down, even if it meant just complete flyable airframes and engines to sit in a warehouse under a rubber condom wrapper...if they're needed in the future.....purchase the next gen avionics for it and you're away laughing.


$412 million per bird ain't cheap...the only way to "make it cheaper" is to try and build some more to ammortize the sunk R&D costs.

Agreed, as per how you are suggesting you have not only produced additional stocks incase a surge capacity is needed, but you have run down costs somewat per unit and hell you have an abundance of systems which could end up being exported to increase the capabilities of allies if necessary (and/or by the time you have already started to bring in the next generation of aircraft..) What I find somewhat ironic/sad is that the Aircraft was unable to be exported to what I can tell because of a congress approved ban, I guess to maintain the US edge in capabilities and to safe guard secrecy, ironically because that meant less could be built I am sure that must have had a part in running up costs and as a result played a part in cutting the fleet size reducing capabilities (and forcing allies to rely upon Legacy Systems or the more troubled F-35)

I wonder how possible it would of been to produce an even cheaper export version and how much capabilities could of been maintained in that processs


I might be entirely wrong in some of my thoughts but well, that is my rant over

[Marsch]

Somebody knows if PIMAWS is already installed on the German Typhoons?

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Image credits: Dietmar Fenners via David Cenciotti's weblog

[American Caesar]

I'll just drop some food for thought here, even though I have no intention whatsoever to join the cyclejerk again: to this very day the Russian air force (and their military aviation industry) gives precedence to dog fights over beyond-visual-range- and air-to-ground-combat. So it's not absurd to allege that neat dog fight abilities would still be important today.

By the way, the German air force reports its Eurofighters faced the Raptors in the standard interceptor configuration in the skies over Alaska. The only "stripping down" that occured was related to the additional equipment the planes carried during Red Flag in order to record their perfomance and field new electronics unrelated to the interceptor role, and with regard to the external fuel tanks (which would've been jettisoned anyway upon entering a real dog fight... and don't pretend they would have not - we've discussed this question to death the last time).

I'll add an order of fries to this. It has been my understanding that the Soviets would be operating in a very heavy ECM/ECCM environment BVR wouldn't be happening with radar screens white as snow which makes me think that's why the MiG-29 and Su-27 featured a IRST.

[Alpheus]

lol, kill silhouettes from exercises? Whats next, silhouettes on their PC's for simulator kills?

[C.Puffs]

Things may change with a new administration. As Flagg pointed out, the more F-22s we build, the cheaper they get. We should be selling F-22s to Japan, Korea, Australia, Israel, and whichever other of our most trusted allies want them. That would mean more jobs for us and cheaper F-22s for the USAF. With a Repub Prez and Congress, that could well happen.

Except that would make the unit cost of the F-35 go up and that's the one that's the all-around aircraft to fill out the fleets.

lol, kill silhouettes from exercises? Whats next, silhouettes on their PC's for simulator kills?

They'd probably have to make the F-22 longer to show all the Typhoon kills.

[Kilgor]

lol, kill silhouettes from exercises? Whats next, silhouettes on their PC's for simulator kills?

Guys putting knotches on their beds when they wack off over a playboy ?

Seriously lame...

[Corrupt]

They'd probably have to make the F-22 longer to show all the Typhoon kills.

That might hamper it's stealth. Its a perfect strategy!

[Marsch]

lol, kill silhouettes from exercises? Whats next, silhouettes on their PC's for simulator kills?

Guys putting knotches on their beds when they wack off over a playboy ?

Seriously lame...

Yep, totally uncommon.



Stop throwing rocks while sitting in a glass house!

[Alpheus]

I never said anything about it being uncommon. And that one is equally lame.

<---- Location, location.

Yep, totally uncommon.



Stop throwing rocks while sitting in a glass house!

[DasVivo]

Do Pilots put up kill marks for other simulated kills? If not that People are putting up kill knotches for the F-22 is probably indicative of the reputation it has, so while 'questionable' I guess it is regarded as something to be particulary proud of

[timetraveller]

The F22 was simply designed to be a fighter for American's to get a hardon about ...

[BlackZodiac]

I was under the impression the F-22 was on a whole other level compared to other Russian & Nato 4.5-5 gen fighters (guess not). With price to performance ratio the Typhoons are the best bang for your buck hands down.

[Genotype]

You guys .... please read that troll David Axe from Wired's Danger Room blog.

The fight against the Typhoons was a set scenario. In visual range. For political purposes the fight was rigged to be even in the first place. Troll writers and internet trolls feed into this without READING.

Excellent comment a poster wrote on Danger Room. In no way would the Typhoon come close to be "EVENLY" matched in an engagement beginning in BVR. Its like a shotgun facing off against an assault rifle. You might be better in close range but anything other than that your Swiss cheese.

Strange.

I agreed with the point you made.

Then I read the quote you posted and was disappointed that you'd choose to quote someone talking completely out of his ass.

[Marsch]

I never said anything about it being uncommon. And that one is equally lame.

<---- Location, location.

"lol, kill silhouettes from exercises?" doesn't exactly sound like you were aware of it and "Whats next, silhouettes on their PC's for simulator kills" was directed at the German Typhoon pilots. A sarcasm smiley doesn't changes the fact. I just told you that you were wrong. Anyways, nice backpaddling.