US soldier teaching Chinese soldier how to use the M4A1

[Jippo]

trying to point out combined arms warfare wasnt invented by Germany. BUT since you want to play. And I do indeed believe Patton understood tank tactics better than Guderian ANd would not be surprised if Hart and Fuller also understood them better.
1941 Germany invades Russia, winds up losing
1943 Germany Loses in North Africa
1943 Germany Loses in Sicily
1945 Germany Loses in Italy
1945 Germany loses in Yugoslavia
1945 Germany loses in Northwest Europe
Guderian winds up prisoner of the Ami
Germany proper is Occupied for 10 years
Berlin Occupied for 45 years

All your bases had belong to us....

Liddell Hart? I'm a bit disappointed with you now. And as the fall of Germany was a mathematical fact after the US entered the war, it is just silly to use it as an example of failed tactics. It is an example of a failed STRATEGY, which truly trumps the importance of any of the tactics used.

As it happened, a lot of the things of what Germans did with their tanks can be found these days in the US FM's. Surprised? You shouldn't be.

US still has a thing to learn from German tank tactics of the WW2. It is a thing that enabled the success of the Blitz tactics, namely Auftragstaktik. Every leader through the army was trained in this and it was one of the cornerstones of Guderians work too. I believe that the best, most effective results are achieved when everyone is working for the common goal with almost full liberty of actions on their own battlespace. This is especially important with something like armored warfare where things are rapidly changing over large land areas. Until US changes it's whole operational culture they will be lacking in this sector IMO. [Good example of US failure in this field is Op. Anaconda. I don't know how authentic material I have read about the case but at times it seemed like actions of a SF team in the mountains were lead by a general million miles away. German way of doing this would have been to issue the lt/sgt leading the team their tasks and limits and let him be on his merry way. Micromanagement of subordinates from the rear was (and still is I believe) a serious no-go.]

[Eagle9294]

Liddell Hart? I'm a bit disappointed with you now. And as the fall of Germany was a mathematical fact after the US entered the war, it is just silly to use it as an example of failed tactics. It is an example of a failed STRATEGY, which truly trumps the importance of any of the tactics used.

As it happened, a lot of the things of what Germans did with their tanks can be found these days in the US FM's. Surprised? You shouldn't be.

US still has a thing to learn from German tank tactics of the WW2. It is a thing that enabled the success of the Blitz tactics, namely Auftragstaktik. Every leader through the army was trained in this and it was one of the cornerstones of Guderians work too. I believe that the best, most effective results are achieved when everyone is working for the common goal with almost full liberty of actions on their own battlespace. This is especially important with something like armored warfare where things are rapidly changing over large land areas. Until US changes it's whole operational culture they will be lacking in this sector IMO. [Good example of US failure in this field is Op. Anaconda. I don't know how authentic material I have read about the case but at times it seemed like actions of a SF team in the mountains were lead by a general million miles away. German way of doing this would have been to issue the lt/sgt leading the team their tasks and limits and let him be on his merry way. Micromanagement of subordinates from the rear was (and still is I believe) a serious no-go.]

We successfully utilized German armored doctrine during Desert Storm. The 2nd ACR even had photos of Rommel hanging in their vehicles as a tribute to his tactics. You single out Operation Anaconda and neglect the other operations that were successful. There have been many successful operations that are classified and none of us will know about. History has proven you can't change the culture in Afghanistan. They want to remain a neanderthal culture. Germany was defeated when they failed to take Moscow in 1941. A victory at Stalingrad or Kursk would not have been beneficial enough to change their misfortune. Their generals knew this as did Hitler. They just chose to continue fighting a lost war.

[Token White Guy]

You think so? He is actually correct in many of the things he says. You on the otherhand have very little to offer into discussion. I certainly can't remember a case of meaningful contribution.

Well I'm not a super secret squirrel, am I?

My point being is mister SpecOps thinks the US stole everything from Mother Russia. You not understanding that further brings us down into this troll thread.

I'll wait until Hollis gets a PM back from the l33t operator.

[LineDoggie]

An example:
- US winter warfare school copied Finnish winter warfare tactics, many of the instructors were actually Finns.

Which US winter warfare school? the USMC version at Bridgeport CA, the US National Guard one in Vermont, or the Army Northern Warfare Training Center in Alaska?


And if we are talking about during WWII, Finland was an unfortunate US/UK Enemy for allying itself with the Reich in 1941 so Finnish instructors would have been considered enemy aliens, military pers would have been made POW's. There were Norwegians instructing the FSSF in Sking and the 10th Mountain division along with the National Ski Patrol.

[Jippo]

Here is one of the guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni

Managed to be captain in FDF and Waffen-SS, Major in the US Army. There were actually a US training films from the 50's posted on mp.net a while ago. Everything in those films was from, guess where. Films also starred the bloke above among other Marttinen's men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca2P-...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qabnk...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0scWILnIyc4

[Eagle9294]

[QUOTE=Jippo;6313897]Here is one of the guys:<BR><BR><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni" target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni</A><BR><BR>Managed to be captain in FDF and Waffen-SS, Major in the US Army. There were actually a US training films from the 50's posted on mp.net a while ago. Everything in those films was from, guess where. <IMG class=inlineimg title=Smile border=0 alt="" src="images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" smilieid="1"> Films also starred the bloke above among other Marttinen's men.<BR><BR>

Dude, Thorne was a American citizen. Different than some instructor from Finland coming over here to train our soldiers. He was a SF soldier and is buried on our soil.<BR>

[Connaught Ranger]

I believe (but stand open for correction) that the French trained British soldiers in Winter warfare in the mountains of Lebanon during WW2. Also British & French troop's deployed with skis on the Anglo-French expedition to Norway in 1939/40.

Connaught Ranger

[Eagle9294]

I believe (but stand open for correction) that the French trained British soldiers in Winter warfare in the mountains of Lebanon during WW2. Also British & French troop's deployed with skis on the Anglo-French expedition to Norway in 1939/40.

Connaught Ranger

I know we received some training from the British, during the WW2 era, but I can not remember specifics.

[Jippo]

Dude, Thorne was a American citizen. Different than some instructor from Finland coming over here to train our soldiers. He was a SF soldier and is buried on our soil.

And how is the nationality an issue here? Argument was about US troops using Finnish tactics, which has been shown to be true as far as I am concerned.

[Eagle9294]

And how is the nationality an issue here? Argument was about US troops using Finnish tactics, which has been shown to be true as far as I am concerned.

I'm not seeing it.

[Hollis]

I'm not seeing it.

People do barrow from others. There is this concept about something that works. People like to copy it. Fins, did exceptionally well in their war against the Soviets. IMHO, it would be worth looking at. IF they have use it, what does say. It says it worked.


We really have gotten off topic from US soldier teaching Chinese. We all share in ideas. ........... so let's move on.

[boel72b]

[QUOTE=LineDoggie;6312841]Sorry I hate to say this But I find it easier to read Time Travelers posts than you
[quote]


I hate to say you..... *****************************

you again obviously don't comprehend that SOE and OSS worked in Civilian clothes and enemy uniform and with Partisans in the Balkans and Resistants in Europe. Jedburghs ring a Bell?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Jedburgh there were similar operation in Yugoslavia, Albania, Greece, etc.

THE OPERATIONS IN THE BALKANS OF THE SOE DON'T BE ANTISUBERSIVE OPERATIONS........ IF YOU CAN'T BE SEE THE DIFERRENCE OF TWO KIND OF OPERATIONS......

the use of civilian clothes is previous to soe.....(brandemburg use them before)

but soe don't have fac to the cas plane.... soe don't pursuit mujahadins and do reports to heliproded ambush forces, etc.... kaskad do and the the ussocom do know

READ AND LEARN

At Waco they werent Hostages for one thing, they were part of the cult. Secondly the FBI HRT and ATF are 2 seperate entitys. Again your lack of facts astounds...

Unintelligible Gibberish

Be hostages . the children and woman be manipulated

And the priority is save the inocents........ and the children and woman don't have any crime, for a antiterror asault team they be hostage to be free



Ad i don't say who the waco siege be made for the hrt...... i say who that siege be make instead of hrt be a criminal error


[quote]

again get someone who can read/write english and repost this as its barely coherent.



And no ones trains with the US?

On Your part WHAT???? Armored Personnel Carriers to advance the Infantry with the Tanks is a Basic Tenet of combined arms philosophy. In WWII the US, UK, & Germany had this capability recognized and had the vehicles to accompany their tanks. The Soviets resorted to welding handholds to tank turrets for Infantry. So the Soviet Infantry were exposed to enemy fires Direct and Indirect the entire time during the assault with NO protection other than their overcoats.

You be a ignorant.... not be part of the combined arms doctrine...... learn to guderian ..... tuyaveski... etc...


the co0mbimned arms teory is based in the use of armour units like "armour fist" with the artillery, infantry and artilley like support arms



the infantry support needs a increment of infantry's movility....... and the apc is the "necesary tool" for that.... but not be a part of the doctrine

The US Army was experimenting at the same time as the Soviets and Germans as was the French and British. The British had a Model of Tank in 1918 that not only could be used as a carrier of supplies and Infantry but had successfully been tested in Amphibious tests. The Mark IX could carry 10 tonnes of supplies, or 30 armed Infantrymen and on 11 November 1918 successfully showed its amphibious capability in Welsh Harp Reservoir.




Read George S. Patton III, Adna R. Chaffee Jr., Charles De Gaulle, Hugh Elles, JFC Fuller, Basil Liddell Hart......

The us army don't the developed a real combined arms doctrine.... they have very limited experiments .......

I read...... read von manstein, guderian tuyaveskhi ...... read to real experts



Any of your great experts pass so much to the personal doctrine........ any west nation do a
total military doctrine like pu 36 to his army





But ------ you're a **** and can't have the capacity to see the diference of clandestine war and antisubersive bar..... operacional combine doctrine and tactical use orf arms

[Hollis]

I hate3 to say you..... you are a simply fanboy....

Do us all a big favor, keep the insults or personal attacks out. This goes for all members too.

[boel72b]

boel honestly I would have to take a hard look at myself if you thought highly of me. I don't know if you are special operations but it's obvious you are special.

And it's obvius who you be a fanboy and the only you can do its talk about the facts wiouth know thwy

read about these guys tard.

http://www.insigne.org/OSS-2671.htm

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f.../oss/art05.htm

And you don't see the difernence of cover operations war, sabotage ........ and the antisubersive
war... if you know anithing .You talk abaut the seolus scouts and not abaut soe or the vietnam sog



the vietnam sog use a more limited version of the kaskad tactics and don`t be total integrate in the terrain sub units

Boel I don't want to be rude, but if you are having difficulty with speaking in English, I recommend you use a Google Translator. Albeit, it won't be as accurate, but at least your spelling and texts format would be a lot nicer.

http://translate.google.com/

________________



- To be fair, the United States Special Operation Forces do work with dozen of others Special Forces from around the world. I wouldn't say it's a bad thing or anything to be shameful about since they are sharing viable skills and knowledge with each other. It helps build up bond and trusts between nations and prepare soldiers or operators for any unexpected scenarios; such as a hijacked Airliner.

this is when i say ...... don't be teachers .... all learn

- For the most part nobody even knows what goes on in the CIA, that's why they're CIA.

But even if that's the case, there's nothing wrong with adapting with other nationality tactics.

It doesn't mean that our paramilitary isn't the best, just as long as we're capable of pulling it off.

Former cia members claim for change the model of antiterror war en a-stan

- I honestly don't understand this part of the statement. If you're trying to say how good other nationality's Special Forces team is compare to ours, prop to them I suppose. But our Special Operation Forces are trained for all climates and any situations too.

Not ...... it'sw more easy . you need more commandos and create permanent unit to that task

...put your mountain combat masters in this unit..... and all the special forces units have they

- And yet they are no where to be seen in Afghanistan.

In the past be seen...... and you m113 with amos in a ch53k be a good alternative , better than a predator


- Finally something we can agree on.


[quote]
- Blending in with the locals isn't a new idea or concept, we've been doing that since the war with the Native American. You could debate whether who's copy who's idea first since it's irrelevant and doesn't prove whether you are the best or not. For the most part the only history that the Special Operation Forces studied is the country that they are going to be on deployment in. This is to give a general idea of what to expect upon arrival and how to respect other nation's custom.

[/quotee]

I know..... the problem is another. the problem is all the rest of regulars units of a dozen of country who patrol the litium route in mraps.

- As already mentioned before, "copying" doesn't mean you're the best or not, just as long as you could pull it off.

yes.... copying only save time and resources

- I really don't understand this. But I hope you aren't trying to be insulting.

i try to be ironic....... some fanboys can't be capable who in the real world copy to another is irrelevant

[quote]

- I don't see anything wrong about it, nor do you see most Americans going around bragging about it either.
[quote]

and don't be wrong.... only it's a fact, a example of all the countrys copying

- Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. Nor do I understand anything that follows afterward.

All this amount of talking just because you couldn't handle a joke.

it's easy ..... anybodys redevelpment the wheel

trying to point out combined arms warfare wasnt invented by Germany. BUT since you want to play. And I do indeed believe Patton understood tank tactics better than Guderian ANd would not be surprised if Hart and Fuller also understood them better.
1941 Germany invades Russia, winds up losing
1943 Germany Loses in North Africa
1943 Germany Loses in Sicily
1945 Germany Loses in Italy
1945 Germany loses in Yugoslavia
1945 Germany loses in Northwest Europe
Guderian winds up prisoner of the Ami
Germany proper is Occupied for 10 years
Berlin Occupied for 45 years

All your bases had belong to us....

You can't see the diference of theorical doctrine and aplication of that



And patton...... never fight one of tank batles of the ost front....


in the 30's the soviet union have developed the pu36 .... years after of creation of armoured corps.The guderian blietzkrieg be crearted with their experiences in kazan with their teacher tuyavesky





And for you the principal cause of german fails is the loose of total war..... germany looses for don't be capable of compite whit the soviet and west capacity to arm and alisted unit



1. Germany looses until the soviet who use a very similar miliraty teory and the rest be secundary ..... the 80 % of german troops and resources die in the soviewt snow


p.d patton never stay in biggest tank battles like kursk

You think so? He is actually correct in many of the things he says. You on the otherhand have very little to offer into discussion. I certainly can't remember a case of meaningful contribution.

Disregard his broken english. I'm sure if you tried to write in, say, finnish you'd sound like a retard.

What he is saying is that there is no revolution in tactics. It is evolution and everybody copies the techniques and tactics that (they think) work into their own national armies. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is what a smart and sensible person would do. These days it is only easier than in the past due globalisation and widespread distribution of knowledge.

An example:
- US winter warfare school copied Finnish winter warfare tactics, many of the instructors were actually Finns.
- Finns copy US MOUT tactics a bit later on. Actually some of the instructional pictures of Finnish FM's can be originally found in US FM's.

This is how it goes. Everyone feeds on everyone else's past experience. Succesful methodologies & techniques are copied world wide, wrong methodology is disregarded. It is global evolution.

But a part of the members only be fan boys...... and can't be capable of admit who the us soldiers like the soldiers of the rest of the world only "specialized workers"(aka trosky) and the movies don't be real

We successfully utilized German armored doctrine during Desert Storm. The 2nd ACR even had photos of Rommel hanging in their vehicles as a tribute to his tactics. You single out Operation Anaconda and neglect the other operations that were successful. There have been many successful operations that are classified and none of us will know about. History has proven you can't change the culture in Afghanistan. They want to remain a neanderthal culture. Germany was defeated when they failed to take Moscow in 1941. A victory at Stalingrad or Kursk would not have been beneficial enough to change their misfortune. Their generals knew this as did Hitler. They just chose to continue fighting a lost war.

1.Afganistan can change..... to dominate them, the only real form is with a brutal claeanin g in the hungary with millonay deaths

2. don't only be culture . The presion of religion and the drugs money be a real definitive factors

3. Yes , the "air land battle" doctrine is a evolution of blietzkrieg....

4. the germans lost the war they who the soviets move their industry to siberia. Alemania don't have men and resources to fight a total war

Which US winter warfare school? the USMC version at Bridgeport CA, the US National Guard one in Vermont, or the Army Northern Warfare Training Center in Alaska?


And if we are talking about during WWII, Finland was an unfortunate US/UK Enemy for allying itself with the Reich in 1941 so Finnish instructors would have been considered enemy aliens, military pers would have been made POW's. There were Norwegians instructing the FSSF in Sking and the 10th Mountain division along with the National Ski Patrol.

You read anythig appart of your fanboy speech. Read about lorny and their dirty dozen and the influence of they in the us special forces mountain training

Well I'm not a super secret squirrel, am I?

My point being is mister SpecOps thinks the US stole everything from Mother Russia. You not understanding that further brings us down into this troll thread.

I'll wait until Hollis gets a PM back from the l33t operator.

Not don't true . iSay who us milatary copy a few tactique of russian and other countries(include russia) copyng tactiques of ther usa


But a few fanboys can admit that , why he think who us learn everiting to rest of the world



[QUOTE=Eagle9294;6313910]

Here is one of the guys:<BR><BR><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni" target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni</A><BR><BR>Managed to be captain in FDF and Waffen-SS, Major in the US Army. There were actually a US training films from the 50's posted on mp.net a while ago. Everything in those films was from, guess where. <IMG class=inlineimg title=Smile border=0 alt="" src="images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" smilieid="1"> Films also starred the bloke above among other Marttinen's men.<BR><BR>

Dude, Thorne was a American citizen. Different than some instructor from Finland coming over here to train our soldiers. He was a SF soldier and is buried on our soil.<BR>

I'm not seeing it.

their military experience and mountain training be finnish. the cuban be trained for the soviets, cuban training to the angolans



the tactics don't be cuban

Do us all a big favor, keep the insults or personal attacks out. This goes for all members too.

Sorry . it's a joke.

[Hollis]

From what I can discern, boel72b is what he says he is. I know his English is horrible, then again my Spanish is much worse than his English. A little civility goes a long ways.