Reply With QuoteMy understanding was that it (the dioxin) wasn't meant to be in there in the first place.Originally Posted by Chiptox
Right. And they cannot be removed during manufacture.
My understanding was that it (the dioxin) wasn't meant to be in there in the first place.
Dioxin is a very toxic chemical that doesn't go away over time. This is agent orange that caused the birth defects and cancer. If you want to talk about industrial pollution, try watching the documentary 'gas land'.
Does anybody know who the contractor in the cleanup is? US company or local?
There are many Dioxins created by industrial productions around the world, however the one in question is TCDD. It would appear while the IARC has listed it as a carcinigen in 1997, the decision is not backed by human studies. And as the synopsis below states after studies of 'Ranch Hand' veterans no evidence was shown to support any increase in the disease after 30 years..
My point is while Vietnam is blaming up to 400,000 deaths and millions of birth defects due to TCDD, the proof isn't there. Albiet it has become "common knowledge" that agent orange must be the culprit.
I firmly believe industrial polution is the major cause of deaths, birth defects, cancers, etc. in Vietnam. All one has to do is google 'industrial pollution and birth defects to see the obvious link between what happened in China and whats going on in Vietnam. It is very easy for the Vietnamese government to deflect criticizm of its industrial growth while blaming the problems caused on the US and agent orange.
"TCDD was classified in 1997 by the International Agency for Research on Cancer as a carcinogen for humans (group 1).[32] In the occupational cohort studies available for the classification, the risk, even at very high exposures, was weak and borderline detectable.[25] Therefore human data were not deemed sufficient, and the classification was, in essence, based on animal experiments and mechanistic considerations.[32] This has been criticized as a deviation from IARC classification rules.[33] It is much debated, whether TCDD is carcinogenic only at high doses which also cause toxic damage of tissues.[11][12][24] Moreover, a recent review concludes that, after 1997, further studies do not support an association between TCDD exposure and cancer risk.[34] New studies include the update of Vietnam veteran studies from Ranch Hand operation, which concluded that after 30 years the results do not provide evidence of disease.[35]"
Last edited by Gerry301; 08-10-2012 at 10:07 AM. Reason: spelling, more spelling
Gerry, there a lot of veterans who are on disability due to Agent Orange. It's difficult to have human studies on the effect of TCDD because it's unethical. Or you can be N of 1 study.
Animal studies of this chemical in the part per billion or even trillion levels have increased rates of cancer. Does that translate to humans, no, but you can see it is worriesome if it's in the water supply and yet the people who drink, breathe and bathe in this water there would be a high degree of concern.
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=2141&page=117
[QUOTE=vinny_121_ND;6310473]Gerry, there a lot of veterans who are on disability due to Agent Orange. It's difficult to have human studies on the effect of TCDD because it's unethical. Or you can be N of 1 study.
Animal studies of this chemical in the part per billion or even trillion levels have increased rates of cancer. Does that translate to humans, no, but you can see it is worriesome if it's in the water supply and yet the people who drink, breathe and bathe in this water there would be a high degree of concern.
I believe there are about 7,000 vets currently recieving disability for the effects of agent orange as allowed under the IARC study. That study has been called into question.
The human studies are conducted on people who are accidently exposed to chemicals,and watched for a number of years for any evidence of disease.The Ranchhand study, studies of industrial accidents, including one in Italy where over 200 people including children who were exposed to large quantities of TCDD etc.) are concluding that little if any of these diseases are being caused in humans.
I agree the people who drink, bathe, breath the air in Vietnam are getting their pollutants, not from agent orange, but from industrial pollution. A quick check of 'Industrial pollution/birth defects/cancer on google will show an explosion of these problems in China. Vietnam has had a large industrial growth as well. How convienient for the Government of Vietnam to blame the nasty Americans for the millions of birth defects occuring while deflecting blame on thier own polluting of the air and water. I might add dioxins are created in many forms and there are many different types. Do you really think the Vietnamese government has the research capability of the west in discovering the source of their problems?
Last edited by Gerry301; 08-10-2012 at 11:33 AM. Reason: minor corrrections
Where in the world are we getting the money for this!? And who has been contracted to do the 'clean-up'? What a racket, thanks again President Obama.
Only to add anecdotal stories on AO...a friend of mine died last year at age 64 or 65, he had served in the army as a warrant officer, not sure if he was a helo pilot of supply guy or what, but he served around 4 tours in VN as I understand. I never got much info out of him on the subject but his sons told me he died from AO exposure, and the army admitted as much...and the fellow had been in a wheel chair for a couple years and on oxygen tanks for a year prior to death.
Another friend who served in army in Korea as a missle tech, said the VA asked him if he was ever at the DMZ in Korea as they had used AO there (evidently) and he would be eligible to get some benefits if he had spent much time near the DMZ (korea). As if the VA is seeking to find more vets exposed to AO even outside of Nam.
As I said, mere stories...but there for your consideration.
You're asking good questions as birth defects are often multi factorial. The question I have is, how are they going to clean this up? It's easy to say they'll clean it up, but what happens if it's seeped so deep into the ground water? Personally speaking, I think this is Obama's way of getting votes. Obama would say now he'll make efforts in cleaning up the environment, reduce carbon emissions, build more schools, put more money into infrastructure, building stronger ties with Canada and Mexico etc etc to get that second term.
Back on topic, I can't answer that question about the viet government making strong conclusions other than epidemiological data of birth defects and cancer incidents after the war. I can't pull the pubmed papers about that, but I'd like to look into it next week.
China has large amounts of birth defects due to their industrial and manufacturing emissions. You do have a point that I'll agree with. We can't solely blame the US, and China doesn't have the moral responsibility or obligation to be environmentally friendly.
The Institute Of Medicine (IOM) has some major studies done (on agent orange) at the request of Congress in the 1990s. I have read some/most of them and part of my argument is based on those studies which I cannot reprint. The PDF is free of charge.
I would certainly like to hear back from you as to your opinion.
According to the informations I gathered the area of operations of the III Corps and here especially the area Phuoc Vinh (Cambodian border) was much harder hit with herbicides than any one of the I Corps. For comparison some numbers of AO gallons used at certain regions from 1965 onwards.
I Corps:
Camp Carrol - 78200
Dong Ha - 54385
LZ Rockpile - 110050
Quang Tri, LZ Nancy - 68000
Firebase Rakkassan - 150145 (highest amount in I Corps)
III Corps:
Tan Son Nhut (Airbase) - 6320
Bien Hoa - 35045
Dien Duc, Firebase Elaine - 66850
Firebase Jewel, LZ Snuffy - 219550
Phouc Vinh - 484383 (highest amount of I-IV Corps)
I also don't think that industrial pollution is as important as Gerry301 wants to believe but it has to be taken into consideration if we're talking about pollution with dioxins and related diseases/deffects. Especially TCDD (Tetrachlordibenzodioxin) and that's what were talking about here "is the most toxic and is considered a known human carcinogen" according to the National Cancer Institute [1]. They're known to be fetotoxic (that translates to Pregnancy Categury D) and teratogenic (toxic to reproduction).
What shouldn't be forgotten is that not only Agent Orange but some other Agents (namely Green, Pink and Purple) with much higher dioxin pollution levels have been used especially during the beginning of the war even not in such amounts.
The good thing is that measurements in certain areas in Vietnam have found that the sprayed areas can actually be considered harmless today and below critical or even normal background level. The problem areas seem to be so called "hot spots" where the Agents were stored, handled and washed out into the ground. Especially locations where large spills have happend are highly contaminated [2].
So there is a good chance they get the problem handled and it's a great move that the USA is helping in the clean-up.
1. http://progressreport.cancer.gov/doc...14&mid#dioxins
2. http://www.agentorangerecord.com/ima...006%283%29.pdf
Last edited by Marsch; 08-10-2012 at 04:42 PM.
[QUOTE=Marsch;6311137]According to the informations I gathered the area of operations of the III Corps and here especially the area Phuoc Vinh (Cambodian border) was much harder hit with herbicides than any one of the I Corps. For comparison some numbers of AO gallons used at certain regions from 1965 onwards.
I Corps:
Camp Carrol - 78200
Dong Ha - 54385
LZ Rockpile - 110050
Quang Tri, LZ Nancy - 68000
Firebase Rakkassan - 150145 (highest amount in I Corps)
III Corps:
Tan Son Nhut (Airbase) - 6320
Bien Hoa - 35045
Dien Duc, Firebase Elaine - 66850
Firebase Jewel, LZ Snuffy - 219550
Phouc Vinh - 484383 (highest amount of I-IV Corps)
I also don't think that industrial pollution is as important as Gerry301 wants to believe but it has to be taken into consideration if we're talking about pollution with dioxins and related diseases/deffects. Especially TCDD (Tetrachlordibenzodioxin) and that's what were talking about here "is the most toxic and is considered a known human carcinogen" according to the National Cancer Institute [1]. They're known to be fetotoxic (that translates to Pregnancy Categury D) and teratogenic (toxic to reproduction).
What shouldn't be forgotten is that not only Agent Orange but some other Agents (namely Green, Pink and Purple) with much higher dioxin pollution levels have been used especially during the beginning of the war even not in such amounts.
The good thing is that measurements in certain areas in Vietnam have found that the sprayed areas can actually be considered harmless today and below critical or even normal background level. The problem areas seem to be so called "hot spots" where the Agents were stored, handled and washed out into the ground. Especially locations where large spills have happend are highly contaminated [2].
So there is a good chance they get the problem handled and it's a great move that the USA is helping in the clean-up.
I know Vietnam was sprayed with alot of the defoliant. You get no argument from me. My argument is that it has not yet been shown in human studies to cause cancer. If that is true, then it doesn't matter how much was sprayed. Actually I have not found a reference to it causing birth defects, (other than in animals) which is why I would like your reference.
Update: I did find this reference at the NCI on Agent Orange. I think this will tell you what I am saying. I found it interesting that the Ranchhand study is even showing signs of those considered to have had the greatest exposure are living longer than the general populace.
http://voteview.com/Dioxin_Summary.pdf
Last edited by Gerry301; 08-10-2012 at 05:17 PM. Reason: spelling/added information
Just a quick reference from the national Cancer Institute:http://voteview.com/Dioxin_Summary.pdf
Cancer and the environment
Dioxins
...
A particular dioxin that is likely to be carcinogenic to humans is called TCDD (2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-pdioxin). TCDD is highly carcinogenic in animals, and, in highly exposed workers, increased overall cancer death rates have been reported.
...
Source: http://www.cancer.gov/newscenter/can...he-environmentNote: Less sensitive not resistant and we're talking about high levels of exposure at mentioned "hot spots".TCDD exposure of human ebryonic palatal shelves in organ culture alters the differentiation of medial epithelial cells.
Abstract
...
Epidemiology studies of populations accidentally exposed to TCDD have failed to identify TCDD as a human teratogen, but these studies are limited by the small numbers of exposed pregnancies and imprecise estimates of exposure.
...
The present data suggest human embryonic palates are less sensitive than those of the C57BL/6N mouse, and that exposure to high levels of TCDD would be required to elicit altered differentiation in the palatal shelf.
Souce: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2014478
Effects of 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin exposure on bone material properties
Conclusion
TCDD exposure in utero and via lactation has significant adverse effects on bone size, strength and mineralization. For the first time, this study demonstrates retardation of bone maturation process as evaluated by nanoindentation at the bone matrix level. Tibias of offspring of TCDD-exposed dams were more ductile, softer, and less able to store energy than control bones. The study suggests that the reduced bone strength is more associated with the mineralization level and altered bone geometry, than with changes in bone material properties.
Source: http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/cds/depar...o-p-dioxin.pdfHuman health effects of dioxins: cancer, reproductive and endocrine system effects
...
Current knowledge of mechanism of actions of dixions does not indicate that humans are in any way more resistant than experimental animals to the effects of dioxins.
...
Source: http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/con...3/331.full.pdf
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