Indonesia Says ‘No, Thanks’ to More Sukhoi Fighters

[Pipedreamer]

I'd say it has something to do with this Asian country's frustration over Sukhoi Superjet 100 crash earlier.

And the Russians disappointed them again by ditching Indonesia's Telkom-3 satellite in a rocket launch failure a week ago.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ls-reach-orbit

[Sootan]

But why? I constantly hear people, especially younger ones, saying we can match so and so.

Before going down that path - we should think about opportunity costs, with whom we are competing and likely to have to use arms against.

South Korea perceives a strong threat from DPRK, and to a lesser degree Japan and China.

Who is Indonesia worried about? Also - can Indonesia substantially increase its military spending without causing an arms race (at best zero sum game and at worst takes away so much domestic resources it causes internal strife?).

If you look at Indonesia's modern weapons, you can see that they're woefully inadequate for a country the size of Indonesia. Less than a squadron worth of under-armed Sukhois and early F-16s, no SAM network or even radar coverage, only some SHORADs. Even the marines are still using BTR-50. There's a long way to catch up to say, Singapore or Malaysia. Besides, Indonesia traditionally has no appetite for an arms race, it's beyond Indonesia's politicians mind scope.

[sepheronx]

I'd say it has something to do with this Asian country's frustration over Sukhoi Superjet 100 crash earlier.

And the Russians disappointed them again by ditching Indonesia's Telkom-3 satellite in a rocket launch failure a week ago.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ls-reach-orbit

Those two have nothing to do with the Su-30 package. The launch of satellites are usually insured for such incidences, and the Superjet crash was something else (so far people are denying system issues and it was pilot). $50M per aircraft if it includes spares and whatnot, is not a bad price, and it is something along the lines that India had payed for their Su-30's. As for the satellites, just means they will have to build them again and launch them again.

[icefrog]

No. It depends on the weight, and the F-16 doesn't weigh as much as a Sukhoi. They are pretty much the same thrust to weight wise, so the engine has to work as hard as the engines in the Su-30.



Of course it will. Fuel consumption is measured in how much thrust it produces. Since the engines produce the same thrust and are of the same generation, fuel consumption wil be more or less the same, but times two. Just as the empty weight is times two.



Fuel consumption isn't measured in number of engines, it is determined by the thrust that the engine produces.
And of course the two planes will have a similar fuel consumption, when both airplane's engines have a dry fuel consumption of 0.81 lb/lbf-hr, and both put out a similar maximum dry thrust of 53/55 kN. The engines can't do anything but have the same fuel consumption. The T-50 is heavier however, and pays that with an increased fuel consumption when it has to throw on its afterburner or generally maintain a higher thrust output than the M346. But that is due to the weight, not the engines themselves.

Isn't what you said is just a long version of this: "There are many other factors such as MTOW and thrust-to-weight ratios, etc."..LoL

Anyway, thanks for expounding it further for everyone. Good explanation.

[fallenpx]

I wouldn't know what the general mindset of common Indonesians over this rival at the current moment is, but I think it pays to be cautious about an openly ambitious neighbor.

I think the Indonesians mindset regarding this issue is that we are indeed cautious. Atleast that's the general impression I've got from our local defense forums and discussions.

[Hyde]

Isn't what you said is just a long version of this: "There are many other factors such as MTOW and thrust-to-weight ratios, etc."..LoL

Anyway, thanks for expounding it further for everyone. Good explanation.

Not really, because those aren't factor's per se in the question of why the F-16 is cheaper to fly than the Sukhoi. They are things to be considered to determine whether the planes are equally adequately powered and why one is using more fuel, but that's about it.

Thanks, hope it's understandable.

[icefrog]

I think the Indonesians mindset regarding this issue is that we are indeed cautious. Atleast that's the general impression I've got from our local defense forums and discussions.

After being embargoed by both the US and UK, you really can't put everything in one basket. South east Asian countries, except for countries like Singapore aren't going to depend anymore in just 1-2 sources of arms. Vietnam wants to diversify too but unlike SG, Vietnam has no choice but to go Russian.

Malaysia would be next... They will either choose the Rafale or EFT just to diversify. No complains from the Malaysians about their Su-30s (unlike the Mig29) but south east asian countries just wants a diversified portfolio on their wares. Even the Philippines wants non-US sourced wares now.

[icefrog]

US is offering another batch of F-16s to Indonesia on top of the already agreed 24 refurbished F-16s.

http://ph.news.yahoo.com/indonesian-...091003773.html

[Blackfield18]

Another batch of F-16's? How many of them? Surely it would be "ain't no free lunch". US must have something really important to play in South China Sea. Why would gifting it's allies for free?
To counterbalance china so Indonesia didn't sided to them?
If this grant accepted again so it will be the end for sukhois possibly~

[Uruzu]

I'm wondering about the logistic burden of having equipment from so many sources.

Hawks from UK, Super Tucanos from Brazil, F-16s from US, Russian Sukhois, Korean T-50s and KT-1s, Grob G-120 from Germany, SF-260 from Italy and lots more. That must be hard to maintain. Not to mention how to ''network'' them together into a coherent fighting force.

[Pukewarm]

third world logistics works wonder, no sweat

[Panjaitan]

Another batch of F-16's? How many of them? Surely it would be "ain't no free lunch". US must have something really important to play in South China Sea. Why would gifting it's allies for free?
To counterbalance china so Indonesia didn't sided to them?
If this grant accepted again so it will be the end for sukhois possibly~

both US and China is trying to sway Indonesia to their side.it's like a Beautiful Maiden being chase by two player.

China offering their C-705 missile TOT and joint production in Indonesia
(and hopely from this deal we'll be able to produce our own seeker for our rocket)

US will need to counter it
hence the new batch F-16

but that is just my 2 cent

I'm wondering about the logistic burden of having equipment from so many sources.

Hawks from UK, Super Tucanos from Brazil, F-16s from US, Russian Sukhois, Korean T-50s and KT-1s, Grob G-120 from Germany, SF-260 from Italy and lots more. That must be hard to maintain. Not to mention how to ''network'' them together into a coherent fighting force.

this is from discussion on local forum,by the time KFX is operational (around 2024-2030) we're planing to wave only three type of jet fighter

Light Fighter :will replace Hawk family and F-5
TA/FA-50 (TA will be trainer,and FA will be patrol)

Medium Fighter : will replace F-16
KFX (F-33 if I'm not mistaken)

Heavy Fighter : Sukhoi Family
SU-27,SU-30 (before there is a plan to add another squadron of sukhoi earlier,but it wont happen during this term)

and tucano is for COIN role

[Sootan]

I'm wondering about the logistic burden of having equipment from so many sources.

Hawks from UK, Super Tucanos from Brazil, F-16s from US, Russian Sukhois, Korean T-50s and KT-1s, Grob G-120 from Germany, SF-260 from Italy and lots more. That must be hard to maintain. Not to mention how to ''network'' them together into a coherent fighting force.

Out of necessity to balance good foreign relation, trading/political decision, and of course the ever-present specter of embargo.