So how about you continue to "do noting" and get back to your conspiracy theory basement. And stop derailing threads ?And no, I don't delude myself that anything can be done about it. It's a country beyond repair.
Do you get similar attitude toward other problems in your life ? "Booo Hoooo everyone is against me, i cannot do nothing" ?
I'm sick of your type of people, drown like sheep by populist polititians, wich preach "you cannot do nothing, voting for me is your only salvation, but even i will fail, so dont expect much - only give me power"
DO NOT WHINE
getting back to the threat subject, the only worth mentioning is: for air defence they want to cooperate with, quote: "France, Germany and others" and it will cost approximately five billion USD (over dozen billions in PLN). Not too soon if they retain jet trainers competition pace, if you have a little sense of humor you might rember that after ten years of work they completed zero corvettes, so keep the distance to such announcement.
You are talking of a nation with the best econ growth eurowide....Originally Posted by Big Lebowski
- AAD is cheaper than air force, quicker responding and when each of these supplement each other properly, syngergy is created
- Poland doesn't have air defence to speak of: most of available hardware traces it's origin to early 60's of XXth century and were ment for Front/Army level air defence, not country/area/theatre air defence. Too small numbers, too small coverage, too old with performance whoefully inadequate for countering any contemporary threat that has flying capability and even basic stand-off munitions; our latest & greatest - Newa-SC (digitzed S-125) is almost 20 years old design, based on refurbrishing old Soviet equipment. Loara - quite capable SPAAG - never made it to serial production and deployment; SA-6 was reasonable asset, but during Yom Kippur War...I wouldn't bet on reliability of only squadron of S-200 missiles...the list goes on
- communications, radars and command & control are more-less in place; we have companies (now under Bumar banner) like PIT or Radwar, who supplied it. There are also Alenia RAT-31 and N-12M backbone radars. However, two large gaps are effectors of system - no modern, long range missiles (read: Aster-30, SM-2/6, Patriot) and no AEW component for detecting (and possibly, countering) low-level flying targets like cruise missiles (not even EMB-145 + Erieye or Hawkeyes; though there was brief fascination with piggybacking Erieye radar on C-295)
- enitre present polish GBAD has far less coverage, sophistication and combat potential than single modern Aegis crusier
- basically, every major component - not only Air Defence - needs generational change and quantum leap in capability: MBTs, tracked ICVs, self-propelled artilery...
- Navy, as others mentioned, is essentionally dead man floating
...and with entire GDP (lol) equaling only 1/3 of German exports alone...
I sincerly hope not.
Oh, Friend... you are SO wrong. State-owned Bumar presented concept of "Shield of Poland" (our C4I + European missiles: Aster + MICA VL) to defend against air and short-range ballistic threats. Our media mistaken it for our own "Missile Shield", and so apparently - you have.
Basically the deal with US was: we allow US to build system our soilthat protects US on (GBI silos + Radar in Czech Republic), and in return, US will station some theatre-level air defence in Poland which would protect both Poland and US installations (read: Patriot missile battery). First USA scrapped the "support ally AD" part, then Obama - quite pragmatically in my opinion - remodeled US ABMD effort (I like idea of Aegis on Shore + THAAD) and put end to deployment of European Third Site. Consequently, our gap in AD was still left wide open. So other players attempted to offer an alternative. It's... called capitalism
We didn't expect USA to foot the bill - like US does for other nations - just to do trade. US withdrew, and we were left with gap to fill.
You don't understand. We - and proposed system - don't give **** rodentum for Iran or anything. There's no strategic missile defence. We are concerned about missiles like Iskander or Toczka-U, crusie missiles and planes comparable Su-24s / Su-27s / Tu-22Ms carrying their EW package and even latest of soviet era arms. We don't have ANYTHING remotely capable of challenging such platforms beside our F-16s, which bases and infrastructure are presently not defended against most rudimentary means of aerial assault.
Nobody reasonable in Poland expects USA to be world's policman or our sponsor. However we spend decade of effort, lives, money and hardware - some say, above our weight - to support US-initiated efforts worldwide, where we had no business of going ourselves. We offered package deal related to US Missile Shield, in hope it would have side effect of mitigating our most pressing defence deficiency.
In return, we got Yalta-II-like agreement where US were proposing Russians to inspect US military installations on Polish soil, while denying such access to Polish military and simply talking and trading about us like we weren't there.
Politics aside, we were able to accept such treatment in return for US military presence to supplement our efforts. There's no such presence, so we attempt to fill gap ourselves, doing exactly what US is doing in e.q. Iraq or where it considers it's national interest. It's as simple as that.
Given that most pressing concerns of NATO is gender parity in military, I'd say it's a good course.
At least in theory, because unless project is managed by foreign integrator, nothing will come out of this except loss of money, time and effort.
And personally, I think that from Europe we only need Aster-30 - we have GROM for close range, and we could use not the Aster-15 (though mix would be good) but AMMRAMs and Sidewinders on polonized, Spyder-like NASAMS insted of MICA VL. As much as I like Meteors, Asters, MICAs Polish Armed forces now have two modern ASSMs (RBS-15 and NSMs), 4 different MBT chassis (T-55,T-72, Leopard 1, Leopard 2) - some commonality would do us really good.
Last edited by Deridex; 08-13-2012 at 09:53 AM.
Well said, this was the most informative post in this thread, thanks.
I thought we did it to remain the dominant power or to remain one of the powers. Same deal with Russia and China. Iran has obvious ambitions. You never hear about other small nations rearming to the degree Poland is. The last small nation that did this conquered Europe. I'm not saying that is Poland's goal but they seem more ambitious militarily lately.
Oh dear god, where to begin?
First, the Poles apparently now have the cash to upgrade, better than wait till broke and then need to upgrade.
Second, Poland has had its forces on Active Service in Iraq and Afghanistan for years. Equipment wears out faster on active service, esp in those climates.
Third they apparently want to modernize so as to have Western and not ex Warsaw Pact designs so as to better align with NATO
Finally, dont even bring up the reich in this thread. it's beyond asinine to compare Poland modernizing to the reich. The UK rapidly went from bolt action rifles to FN FAL's and APC's, new Tanks, new Artillery, new Uniforms and no one thought they were planning to take europe. And thats but one example.
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