In that case the Ottoman Empire's policies are not so relevant to the discussion while those of the Kingdom of Jordan are.Originally Posted by Nyusu
Thanks for helping me make my point.
And the moral of all this... people who live in glass houses and claim that there isn't religious equality in Israel should STFU.
Ottoman rule is relevant, because history doesnt start in last 50 years. Each era did had it own rules that should be looked at separately, because applying modern rules at state of Israel 2000 years ago for example would make it look terrible too. So one should look at them compared to other states of their era, not compared to today.
We are discussing current policies, not those that existed before the 20th century.
Maybe I should bring examples of Mohamed's persecution of Jews since that would also be relevant when following your logic.... so when exactly does history start to become relevant?
To which era would you compare the Kingdom of Jordan (in the period of 1948-1967)?Each era did had it own rules that should be looked at separately, because applying modern rules at state of Israel 2000 years ago for example would make it look terrible too. So one should look at them compared to other states of their era, not compared to today.
I don't know about you, but I would compare it to this one since there are people such as my father who were adults at the time and are very much alive today.
Last edited by EITAN88; 08-18-2012 at 06:39 AM.
Yes, you should have. However, point corrected.Should have been more specific and mention that I was referring to the Kingdom of Jordan's occupation of the Old City.This tax was a small price to pay in relation with the privileges the Millet system granted to religious minorities. If we compare it to the other options which were present at that time, like mass murder, forced conversion, expulsion, it was remarkable for a medieval empire to choose that path. Even European states of subsequent epochs (like starting in the enlightenment) did not change the situation regarding religious freedom immediately. And how would you react if your state, founded in the 20th century, would introduce this tax, firstly collected by a medieval empire (which also abolished it in its end days)? I guess you can see after a little contemplation that your question was unsuitable.As for Ottoman rule, yeah they allowed freedom of religion... as long as you paid a Jizya Tax as a non-Muslim (wonder how the Muslim world would react if we did that).
I have already gone over this with Nyusu.
That's why I presented the policies of the Kingdom of Jordan as an example, since they were indeed more relevant to the world today than what went on during the period in which the Ottoman Empire existed.
I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression as though I'm arguing that all Muslims wish to suppress their non-Muslim neighbors, that wasn't my intention and as someone who has been to Turkey 3 times in his life I can say for sure that it is a shining example of the contrary.
However I do have a problem with people who live in glass houses and chose to throw stones (Muslims who criticize Israel's policy regarding religious minorities fit that definition in my book).
You corrected and specified you point. That's sufficient. Now you can address the stone throwers.
Here is a big healthy serving of STFU:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...ntries#MoroccoIn June 1948, soon after Israel was established and in the midst of the first Arab-Israeli war, violent anti-Jewish riots broke out in Oujda and Djerada, leading to deaths of 44 Jews. In 1948–9, after the massacres, 18,000 Moroccan Jews left the country for Israel. Later, however, the Jewish exodus from Morocco slowed down to a few thousand a year.
I don't know how good is that for either of them
Abram and Sarai
There was a severe famine in the land of Canaan, so that Abram and Lot and their households, travelled south to Egypt. En route, Abram told his wife Sarai, to only say that she was his sister, so that the Egyptians would not kill him. (Genesis 12:10–13) When they entered Egypt, the princes of Pharaoh praised Sarai's beauty to the Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace, and Abram was given provisions: "oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels". However, God afflicted the Pharaoh and his household with great plagues, (Genesis 12:14–17) and after discovering that Sarai was also Abram's wife, the Pharaoh wanted nothing to do with them. He demanded that he and his household leave immediately, along with all their goods. (Genesis 12:18–20)
Ιn other Yahveh punished the Pharaoh because he took Abraham's wife in the palace believing she was Abraham's sister.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sghncnGkFAo
IIRC, They did not allow Muslims to go there either. It was not until the site was captured by the Israelis that it was re-opened to Muslims, Jews and who ever.
.............. and they wonder why there will not be peace on earth. To many people refuse to let the past issues stay in the past. Old hates needs to be preserved, old wars re-fought, and status quo must be maintained.
The Western Wall was closed to everyone, even tourists, regardless of the fact that Jewish access to the site was supposed to be facilitated according to the 1949 Armistice Agreements.
Christian Israelis were only allowed accesses to the Old City during Christmas.
However even Muslim Israelis couldn't travel to the Old City until 1967 but I'm unaware of the Temple Mount itself being closed to the general Jordanian public.
Especially when considering that King Abdullah the First was assassinated at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in 1951 while attending Friday prayers.
I can give you just one example of what i am quite sure,the Israeli authorities in Jerusalem not let the Muslims to pray in the Grand Mosque of Jerusalem and only allows entry to the Grand Mosque to Muslims with at least 50 years old,apart of the abuses and threats of Jewish extremists,who write racist words on the walls of mosques and sometimes burn mosques in different cities especially in the West Bank etc...,i focus on Jewish extremists because unfortunately they count almost always with the protection of the Israeli authorities (police and army).
Normal,because in those days,with the creation of the State of Israel on Arab land, Moroccan Muslims were angry of some Moroccan Jews and Jewish associations calling for the immigration of Moroccan Jews to Israel and supported Israel,this is a reality,aps this,many Moroccan Jews immigrated to Israel,but not all,and some have returned to live in his home country, Morocco,abandoning Israel.
Have peace.
Greetings.
BS... Muslims are allowed to pray in both mosques.
The age restrictions (the restricted age is 45 by the way) are enforced when there is a risk of riots on the Temple Mount as there have been instances in the past where young Muslims who come to "pray" have thrown rocks from the Temple Mount at people who were praying or visiting the Western Wall.
These extremest who are a minority within a minority are hunted and prosecuted by the Israeli authorities you ignorant.,apart of the abuses and threats of Jewish extremists,who write racist words on the walls of mosques and sometimes burn mosques in different cities especially in the West Bank etc...,i focus on Jewish extremists because unfortunately they count almost always with the protection of the Israeli authorities (police and army).
Vandalizing a mosque - not normal.Normal,because in those days,with the creation of the State of Israel on Arab land, Moroccan Muslims were angry of some Moroccan Jews and Jewish associations calling for the immigration of Moroccan Jews to Israel and supported Israel,this is a reality,aps this,many Moroccan Jews immigrated to Israel,but not all,and some have returned to live in his home country, Morocco,abandoning Israel.
Murdering Jews - normal.
Interesting logic you have there
Wrong. Entrance to the temple mount is allowed to everybody except non-Muslims during Fridays and Muslim holidays. Nevertheless, in days like the Nakba, Naksa, etc. when there is high risk to violent riots, the police allows in only men aged 40/45+ who are Israeli citizens and women of all ages.
About your other claim, you took a few isolated incidents and made it look like it happens every day. And with the protection of the police and army? The oppposite!
Normal? What is normal? To kill people? I won't even bother to respond.Normal,because in those days,with the creation of the State of Israel on Arab land, Moroccan Muslims were angry of some Moroccan Jews and Jewish associations calling for the immigration of Moroccan Jews to Israel and supported Israel,this is a reality,aps this,many Moroccan Jews immigrated to Israel,but not all,and some have returned to live in his home country, Morocco,abandoning Israel.
Is normal,meaning that in those days in Morocco,Moroccan Jews and Muslims lived a situation of conflict as we can tell,some Moroccan Jews and Jewish associations doing things that did not like the Muslim population of morocco (the majority),is the same thing could happen to a Palestinian or arab in Israel,although the latter has Israeli nationality,if he does something does not like to authorities and Israeli citizens,things that might be against the interests of Israel,as calling Israelis to leave Israel for example and return to live in their countries of Origin etc etc...
pfffff This is a long history,let's leave the issue.
Muslims massacring their Jewish neighbors = "situation of conflict".
Another fine example of your logic.
No wonder you want to leave the issue because it seems like you don't know your ass from your elbow on this matter.pfffff This is a long history,let's leave the issue.
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