Obama finalizes auto mileage mandate

[shermbodius]

I can't carry my arsonal on trains or planes so I am forced to drive.

[jzamp]

Range Rovers are the furthest thing away from an affordable 4x4.

true, my point was to show that the technology is out there, but "environmental" laws are preventing it to be used in the US.
Maybe the Range Rover sport wasn't the best example but I had the link on hand

[Sniffit]

I can't carry my arsonal on trains or planes so I am forced to drive.

You are that well equipped eh?
****' I envy you...

[shermbodius]

You are that well equipped eh?
****' I envy you...

Ha!............

[Seiyuuki]

I suspect in about 20 years (unfortunately I won't be around to see it) - we'll have hydrogen fuel cell cars, electric, electric hybrids, diesel, diesel-hybrids to go along with gasoline only vehicles on the road.

Peugeot 3008 HYbrid4, but alas, only in Europe.

I think in order to make hydrogen financially viable like regular gasoline, we need a massive effort, similar to those that went into building the National Highway System, in upgrading/building a national infrastructure for hydrogen. There are already several practical examples of hydrogen cars, Honda Clarity, BMW Hydrogen 7 (which supposedly can switch between regular petrol and hydrogen), Mercedes B-class F-Cell, GM Chevrolet Equinox, etc. We just can't conveniently refuel them like regular cars.

In the United States, the government is more concerned with diesel emissions (i.e. particulate/smog) than the EU. It is a costly endeavor for auto manufacturers to get an engine certified, and because Americans associate diesel with old smokey oil burners of old... there just isn't a lot of incentive. Plus... diesel in the United States is costly because of our over-reliance on trucking... which keeps a constant high demand for diesel fuel (but not sufficiently so to increase diesel supply from the refinery).

Unlike the U.S., isn't diesel much more subsidized in Europe? I wouldn't mind shifting some of the gasoline subsidies here in the States toward diesel.

[Andrew Chalmers]

I think in order to make hydrogen financially viable like regular gasoline, we need a massive effort, similar to those that went into building the National Highway System, in upgrading/building a national infrastructure for hydrogen. There are already several practical examples of hydrogen cars, Honda Clarity, BMW Hydrogen 7 (which supposedly can switch between regular petrol and hydrogen), Mercedes B-class F-Cell, GM Chevrolet Equinox, etc. We just can't conveniently refuel them like regular cars.

Before we even go down the road of massive infrastructure investment - we have to figure out how to actually build a hydrogen fuel cell cheaply - and also invest in nuclear energy so hydrogen can be produced via electrolysis instead of reforming hydrocarbons.

That is why I love states like California - they're big enough to artificially create stupid demand and infrastructure to support electric cars - but not so big that their experiments don't go full retard on the rest of us. I'll let Californians pay for development of the electric car and hydrogen car - then reap the rewards

Unlike the U.S., isn't diesel much more subsidized in Europe? I wouldn't mind shifting some of the gasoline subsidies here in the States toward diesel.

Yep - subsidized in the sense that historically in all EU countries, except for the UK, diesel is taxed at a preferential rate. So much so that European refineries historically refined so much diesel that gasoline was surplus and sold at virtually no profit to non-EU members.

But long-term, the EU is moving towards taxing based on CO2 emission & energy content.

[Kilgor]

Hydrogen is a horrible choice in energy carrier, so much so its basically a fraud.

[Sniffit]

Hydrogen is a horrible choice in energy carrier, so much so its basically a fraud.

That depends on how you produce/transport it.

[harryc]

American cities on the most part aren't set up for mass transit. Step off an airplane or bus in almost any city on the West Coast and you have to spend money on a rental car or taxi because you'll be going nowhere fast.

This is why I settled in Chicago, after living in Brooklyn, DC, Madison, and Waukegan. Bought a home that was close enough to the El (subway) that it is a short bike ride which I happily do all year round.

We have a little car (Prius) but also a Dodge Caravan for camping, or just fitting the whole family in one vehicle. The main savings is in how we live, not in what we drive. The cars last a lot longer when you drive them once a week or so.

As far as full electric, there are now charging stations in many of the parking garages, and at all the interstate "oaises". I still miss my old GrandPrix, engines without computers are just more elegant.

[harryc]

Hydrogen is a horrible choice in energy carrier, so much so its basically a fraud.

Hydrogen combined with Carbon = straw man

The proposed standards are EXCEEDED by an 8yr old foreign car. I almost wept when Ford was showing off it's new hybrid at OshKosh, 38Mpg ! I gave them loud **** for not being able to meet or exceed what the Japanese did many years ago.

I still long for my '70 and '71 Galaxy 500s

[deagle]

well, even if the set goal isn't attained, its a challenge for progress in the right direction

i think its more of a challenge to see if any US auto makers can achieve

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....30980&id=30919

i compared the chevy cruze eco vs camry hybrid, and volt vs prius

(not exactly apples and oranges, but whatev)

toyota won naturally, but every generation seems to try to improve fuel economy, so its a right step

[Seiyuuki]

Hydrogen is a horrible choice in energy carrier, so much so its basically a fraud.

How so?

Honda Prefers Hydrogen as U.S. Pushes Battery Autos (Update2)

Hydrogen, made mainly for industrial use from natural gas, costs about $5 to $10 per kilogram for vehicles in California, more than double an equivalent amount of gasoline. Fuel-cell cars also have at least double the efficiency of gasoline models, with Clarity averaging 60 miles per kilogram.

The Energy Department estimates future prices for hydrogen will fall to $2 to $3 a kilogram, Toyota said on Aug. 6.

The fuel can also be made from solar and wind power and even human waste.

I don't know all the gritty-nitty science behind it all, but those seem to be pragmatic numbers.

[Macs.]

The fact is that electric vehicles are not a solution for a world wide supply of cars.

It's simply is the wrong choice, but right now the only "ready" part-time-solution that works out of the box without any great innovation and that makes a few customers happy.

Mercedes is also throwing alot of money at hydrogen, and having driven in the prototype I think this could be one of the more serious solutions out there and not just a marketing gag like alot of hybrids these days.

[Kilgor]

How so?

Honda Prefers Hydrogen as U.S. Pushes Battery Autos (Update2)
I don't know all the gritty-nitty science behind it all, but those seem to be pragmatic numbers.

As in on my third vodka, ill just cut and paste this link


http://www.thenewatlantis.com/public...-hydrogen-hoax

[Kilgor]

The fact is that electric vehicles are not a solution for a world wide supply of cars.

It's simply is the wrong choice, but right now the only "ready" part-time-solution that works out of the box without any great innovation and that makes a few customers happy.

Mercedes is also throwing alot of money at hydrogen, and having driven in the prototype I think this could be one of the more serious solutions out there and not just a marketing gag like alot of hybrids these days.

Germans have been known to make errors of judgement.