non special forces 82nd airborne used in operation
An article on a recent operation in Afghanistan where they're starting to use the resource of large numbers of regular 82nd airborne guys where small number of special forces aren't always the best method.
although i guess training would be too expensive, but you wonder why the regular troops can't be given a seminar by the SF guys on how to act while there. Various behavior tips specific to Afghanistan. As Rumsfeld is pointing out more and more, these types of operations are going to be where future conflicts lie. The days of desert storm tactics are largely over. It would seem that the training of such ideas needs to not only be reserved for the special forces anymore, as ALL soldiers will start to take on roles of SF nature.
the SF boys need the help. And the supporting units like rangers etc, need the training and instruction in working in these heavily populated areas. A lot of those guys must be itching for some action and I dont blame them.
The problems need addressing none the less. ******* with the local people is critical for gathering good information and support.
People there don't like the U.S. as it is. IMO these kind of things risk turning the friendly population against our troops and our allies, putting them even more at risk.
well that's what happened in somalia... the average people loved us, and then suddenly turned against us when they thought they were being threatened... they wanted free food, AND wanted to keep their warlords... oh well. tac, to clarify your post, the rangers ARE sf... they probably get the right training for stuff like this... the 82nd airborne is just regular army with parachutes. it's a very fine line that any soldier walks concerning public opinion. look at our local police.. in general every law abiding person likes them, and is glad they're around. however, all it takes is one bad experience when they pull you over and you hate them... now imagine if they had 20 of their fellow officers with machine guns pointed at you the whole time. not pleasant.
I am stationed at Fort Bragg and I am a member of Special Forces. The 82nd does nothing other than hinder our ability to build ******* with the citizens of Afghanistan. Their ineptitude towards the situation is dangerous to all parties involved. They need to all come home and stay on post pollice call until they retire. All of America would be better off. Excellent link, tac-trunkz, this arcticle is a great example of what we're having to deal with.
well SF, what would be your suggestion to command as a proper way of going about this? apparently they feel that the SF forces alone don't have the manpower to handle the job.
i have a problem with regards to your opinion about the 82nd. i was stationed in the 82nd (325th AIR) and i think that you are stepping out of bounds with your remarks about the unit. i will get to you in a sec., now about the article. first, i agree with the article about how "mountain sweep" has undermined the special forces operations in the area. i strongly agree with the SF nco that a SF team should go along with a company of paratroopers (which baffles me, since it would be the smart thing to do anyway) to do these searches. second, it is irresponsible to speak bad about another outfit to the media, especially if it is about operations (this about the SF guys in the article) being conducted at the present. these guys are only doing their job (airborne troops on the ground) and it is not their fault if they have not been properly trained on conducting these type of operations . the sniping of other forces in the operational area to the media is totally reckless. the media does not give a damn about how we are doing unless we fail, get killed, or have killed a bunch of people (innocent people that is). SF should make their recommendations through the chain of command and hope that they heed their advice and leave at that. i have nothing but respect for all service members and i consider all branches of the military as my "brothers and sisters" in arms. we can't win wars without one or another and i think this inter-service rivalry is stupid. SF don't have the manpower to win this war alone and we can't win this war without SF, end of story. the best solution to this problem is to give our conventional forces more training evolutions with SF. the 82nd, 10th mtn., and 101st, to name a few, should get joint training time with other SF units, so this problem will not arise. rangers get extensive time training with SF units, but having 3 ranger batt's doing this is not enough. it should have been forseen that we would be engaging in these type of operations and the training should have been expanded to the units i named above to fight along side SF units, so when they take over for the rangers, they will already know how not to compromise the SF operations. this is a different type of war and our forces need to update their training in order to be a conventional force with unconventional capablities. now, back to SF, you are a fellow service member and i'm not going to flame you for your comments. i will say that you should give opinions about how operations are being conducted without trying to belittle another unit. SF units have been kicked in the teeth many a time and conventional forces have provided proper support for them while in the heat of some batlles. when we lose a battle or war, SF just does'nt fail, the whole US military machine fails. please show better respect for other service members who are out there risking their lives in the same way as your fellow SF soldiers are doing. if there are mistakes being made in the field, lets fix it in the field, not in front of CNN or on the front page of the New York Times (or this forum).
I'm about 150 pages into one of the recent Tom Clancy non-fiction books, Shadow Warriors. Highly recommended reading. He spends roughly the first 100 pages talking about the creation of special forces, going back to WW 2. He talks at length about the rivalries that exist and have existed since its inception. His thinking is in line with what Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld has said repeatedly over the last year. That conventional warfare is out the window for now. The idea of having large separations between branches of service are going to have to change, and all soldiers are going to start taking on roles that normally would only be special forces related. As much as someone who's not in the military can speculate, I forsee increases in special training for the rank and file soldiers in this arena as the US goes into more and more countries, but is held to the difficult standard of being the good guys in a bad situation.
like i said, they need to change the way our conventional forces operate. we have this big army looking for a big fight, but the days of conventional war is over (for now). we are not truly prepared to fight an urban fight in iraq, but let me clarify. we will win the fight, but this is the fight against terrorism and we have to win the hearts and minds of the people in the middle east. our troops need to be prepared to not only kill the enemy, but to also wage a "civil affairs" type of campaign as well. they need to learn some of the culture, so as too not offend the population. that is the key that will make or break us if we go into iraq, we have to win the people over. if we don't, then the fight would have been a waste of time. our infantry soldiers have to be trained not only to kill, but to be prepared to be an occupying force until a new regime is brought forth. the people will side with whoever wins, but you have to show them that you are there to liberate them and make them believe that times will be better since the last regime is gone. if we pull that off, it will be a cake walk. if we don't, we will be in trouble. those troops need to understand how important it is for them to treat the people with respect and in return they will give you possible info. about other terrorist organizations around the region. that is how you win the fight against terrorism, you get the people on your side and in return they will give you the names of those that we seek. these people are poor and have seen nothing but despair. you show them something better, they will give loyalty to you.....never fails.
Sorry about the rude post. It's sometimes very frustrating when the units operating in a theater don't really "get along" that well. I will say SF guys will **** the 82nd as soon as the 82nd will **** them, but SF has a more delicate -and in this case, applicable- mission. It's not right no matter what side of the street you're on, so I suppose this is just a vent for some of my frustrations.
sounds like the problems we had in ireland with the parachute regiment
fine when there was a riot or something but day to day they just caused more problems some of it was deliberate other stuff was just unthinking.
Paratroops are trained to fight pitched battles against conventional forces spec forces can't do that.
you want them to do something a bit subtle you train them
I guess it pretty much comes down to the SOF Truth "SOFs cannot be mass produced" Special forces are special for a reason, they have specialized equipment and training, not to mention the baddest dudes to walk the face. They also have a specialized mission. Although they can and very often do perform missions which could qaulify as miricles, they can't handle all missions. Some because they are just not setup to perform it, or b/c its a waste of those resources. I think its incorrect to argue that the 82nd is unnecesary. There are many missions where they are the ideal force. There is no way that a single ODA can hold off an infantry batttalion. Just my thoughts...
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non special forces 82nd airborne used in operation
although i guess training would be too expensive, but you wonder why the regular troops can't be given a seminar by the SF guys on how to act while there. Various behavior tips specific to Afghanistan. As Rumsfeld is pointing out more and more, these types of operations are going to be where future conflicts lie. The days of desert storm tactics are largely over. It would seem that the training of such ideas needs to not only be reserved for the special forces anymore, as ALL soldiers will start to take on roles of SF nature.
it's a very fine line that any soldier walks concerning public opinion. look at our local police.. in general every law abiding person likes them, and is glad they're around. however, all it takes is one bad experience when they pull you over and you hate them... now imagine if they had 20 of their fellow officers with machine guns pointed at you the whole time. not pleasant.
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