I suggest that only servicemen who have used the SA80A2 vote as they r really the only people who have used it.
I have used the L98 Cadet GP rifle but that is different to the SA80A2, I'm not gonna vote.
SA80 ****?
Is the SA80A2 still crap even after the upgrades or is it improved MOD claims that it is Extremely acuurate but this was allways known and that it is reliable and hard wearing. But the one obvious downfall is that it cannot be used by left handers unless they whant a facefull of hot shell casings.
I suggest that only servicemen who have used the SA80A2 vote as they r really the only people who have used it.
I have used the L98 Cadet GP rifle but that is different to the SA80A2, I'm not gonna vote.
I love the look of the SA80, and think it would probabl make a great range rifle, but I agree with ScreamingEagle and will not vote either way as I have not fired it myself.
SA 80A2 Individual Weapon and Light Support Weapon
SA80 is the designation for a revolutionary family of assault weapons. On its introduction, the L85 Individual Weapon (IW) proved so accurate that the Army marksmanship tests had to be redesigned. The British Army uses the L85 Individual Weapon that replaced the rifle and sub-machine gun, and the L86 Light Support Weapon (LSW) that produces higher volumes of fire and is effective at longer ranges. An infantry section consists of two four-man fire teams armed with SA80s: three IWs and one LSW.
Both weapons have been modified in light of operational experience, and had a major mid-life update in 2002, which resulted in the SA80A2 series -–the most reliable weapons of their type in the world.
One new Underslung Grenade Launcher (UGL), designed to be mounted beneath the barrel of the IW, will be issued to each fire team, replacing the Rifle Grenade General Service (RGGS) and 51mm mortar – significantly reducing the ammunition load the infantry section carries, while enhancing its capabilities. The UGL will be able to fire 40mm High Explosive (HE), smoke and illuminating rounds out to a range of 350 m to destroy, obscure or indicate enemy positions.
There is also a single shot version of the IW in service with the Army Cadets.
.
L85 Individual Weapon
Calibre 5.56 mm
Weight 4.98 kg (with loaded magazine and optical sight)
Length 785 mm
Barrel Length 518 mm
Muzzle Velocity 940 m/s
Feed 30 round magazine
Effective Range 400 m
Cyclic Rate of Fire 610-775 rounds per minute
L86 Light Support Weapon
Calibre 5.56 mm
Weight 6.58 kg (with loaded magazine and optical sight)
Length 900 mm
Barrel Length 646 mm
Muzzle Velocity 970 m/s
Feed 30 round magazine
Effective Range 1000 m
Cyclic Rate of Fire 610-775 rounds per minute.
From the british army offical website.
That's the L98 Cadet GP Rifle.Originally Posted by andrew45c
I have not used the A2, so I won't comment on it's reliability.
But it is essentially the same design, which I think is flawed.
The balance is wrong, it's too top heavy with a SUSAT on, it 'tips back' with a full mag on (meaning it's more tiring to hold), but most importantly it's not instinctively designed.
The safety is ok, but the change lever is crap and requires you to take your had off the weapon to switch modes.
The M16 is much better. I found that it was much lighter (or felt that way) and the placement of the 'gubbings' much more instinctive to use. the combined safety/change lever is great, and it's positioned just above the pistol grip, no need to move your hand away. the magazine release is well positioned and the forward assist button is a good idea. the whole weapon looks like it was designed around the working parts. Unlike the SA80, which is a box full of crap parts.
The LSW is just pants, no balance, no justification for it's concept at all. A support weapon that fires 5.56 needs the following in order to be worthwhile:
1. Longer range (marginal with the LSW)
2. Higher rate of fire (nope)
3. Higher magazine capacity (nope)
Pointless. The Minimi has all of this and is therefore far better.
BTW, do any othe SA80 users gett annoyed by the dozens of cuts and scraps you get from just picking up the weapon?! And what about that callous that forms on the right thumb knuckle?
Just wondering...
What are the reasons for the introduction of a cadet rifle??That's the L98 Cadet GP Rifle.
@Sabre: BTW: the author of LotR is Tolkien, not Tolkein
Tolkien, you're right...must have been the qoute place I got it from.
The reasons for intruducing the L 98 are the same as those used for the introduction of the SA80...
...another idea from the MoD RIB (Random Ideas Bureau)!
The Idea being a single shot action was safer, and a larger cocking handle would be easier to use.
That is wrong, though. The larger handle sticks due to poor design and disturbs the fire position too much. The subsequent hotch-potched weapon handling drills neccessary for cocking with the 'wrong' (right) hand lead to dangerous points where the weapon isn't held properly. (ie Holding the working parts to the rear).
The best option would be to have an SA80 with gas parts but only on repitition, not Automatic. This is rumoured about being introduced.
See, changed it now...
That's good.
But why do they introduce a .22 lr gun??
That's for me a little strange. Our recruits learn to shoot with the SIG 550, nothing else.
And the 16 year old boys and girls in the shooting club's learn it the same way.
I've heard that the safety catch on the SA80 isn't all that ok as someone said that deactivating the safety catch has to be done with the trigger finger "Which is madness!!!!!" , but quite a few weapons r like that, GPMG and Minimi to name a few.
"But why do they introduce a .22 lr gun?? "
Much cheaper if you are firing thousands of rounds. Also with such a low powered round you can use much smaller ranges, and indoor ranges with less noise problems.
Yeah, the safety is a bar that passes through the reciever. You can put it on by using your left thumb, but putting it off requires using the trigger finger.
You can use the middle finger (not in that way, although it might help morale!) of your left hand to put it off, but that involves holding the weapon virtually like a pistol. With only the thumb and index of your left hand gripping the hand guard and the ring and little fingers resting on the fingers of the right hand.
GazB's points about the .22 rifle make sense, on paper. In reality, the weapon (called the No.8), is based on the Lee-Enfield rifle. It's massive and heavy. The bolt and the rest of the working parts are far too excessive for the tiny .22 round. It was often difficult for cadets to hold the weapon for long periods (or even a detail of 5 rounds). A much better idea would have been to buy the .22 conversion kits for the SA80. They use the same .22 rounds, but the L98 would be easier to handle.
Kampfhamster said
Switzerland has a very sensible attitude towards shooting and firearms - and as a result you have plenty shooting ranges capable of taking 5.56mm ammo and upwards. In the UK, firearms are our national paranoia and in many cases cadet units - or anyone else for that matter - have to travel considerable distances to use ranges which will take 5.56mm ammo and bigger, whereas almost every town has an indoor .22 range, as do virtually all military bases.But why do they introduce a .22 lr gun??
That's for me a little strange. Our recruits learn to shoot with the SIG 550, nothing else.
And the 16 year old boys and girls in the shooting club's learn it the same way.
In the good old pre-SA80 days, we had a sub-calibre (i.e. .22LR) insert system made by H&K for our 7.62mm SLRs.
On Sunday I will be travelling over 100 miles each way to attend a rifle match because this is the closest non-military range to where I live - bet it isn't like that in Switzerland.
I see. That sucks.
The next shooting range here is about 1,5 km away. And then is there a second about 2,5 km away
But I don't understand the sense of .22 lr-weapons. Their characteristica is quite different.
BTW: SLR is a nice rifle. A little bit too long, but really good.
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