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Thread: Impunity robbers

  1. #1

    Default Impunity robbers

    Probably if Italy have had the same neighbours as Poland, they wouldn't have been so unique place like they are.

    Google translation:

    Sweden should pay us the archives looted during the invasion 
 and libraries, including Royal Library. But there is no one who give judgment in this case

    Sweden is committed to the art. VII and IX in 1660 concluded peace Oliwa. Treaty, under which bears the signature of Swedish Bengt Oxenstierny Chancellor, is still valid. In accordance with the provisions of the return of Polish books and archives was to take place within three months of ratification. After 353 years, they are still, however, in the Swedish archives and libraries, including in Uppsala.

    Winner of the eternal law, allowing the winner appropriated all the good the enemy of the Christian world was limited initially motivated by religious convictions, and since the Renaissance - with reference to the norms of the natural law. Principle that is entitled to special protection works of art here, for the first time formulated a Polish lawyer James Przyłuski. Already in the nineteenth century as to whether there was a broad consensus.

    In international law, a claim for the return of looted cultural property is not barred. But there is no court that could still pass judgment ordering the execution of the Treaty of Oliwa. Liabilities arising from interstate treaties may in fact go to court only if they agree to their signatories.

    - I do not know if today's world to be able to recover any cultural property through legal proceedings in which the plaintiff seek a fulfillment of the provisions of the peace treaty before the First World War - admits prof. Wojciech Kowalski, foreign minister plenipotentiary for the restitution of cultural property.

    Poland has, like no other country in Europe, a terrible balance of gains and losses of war. The invaders stolen away a large part of our national heritage. Until the plunder committed by the Nazis looted treasures most of us Swedes, and, in the period of the partitions, the Russians. Swedish troops plundered tens of hundreds of churches and castles and cities 
 - same Royal Castle in Warsaw and eight-fold. Exported overseas all the archives, paintings, furniture, carpets, marble stairs, chalices and vestments.

    The Russians immediately after the suppression of the Kościuszko Uprising was taken to St. Petersburg Zaluski Library and archives crown, *****ped the Royal Castle and robbed hundreds of private residences. After the fall of the November Uprising, among others robbed Gazebo and bathrooms.

    For the country, under the Treaty of Riga, in the years 1921 - 1927 returned to Russia 400 thousand. books and 16 thousand. m****cripts. But as many are still in Russian archives and libraries.
    original article:
    http://prawo.rp.pl/artykul/757708,98...as-potopu.html

  2. #2
    L O L A JCR's Avatar
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    Poland = the world record holder in grudges

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    Senior Member Mastermind's Avatar
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    A sad fact of life in war. War is horrible- hell on earth. But, who can bring back the treasures of Monte Casino? All were smashed to dust by the allied senseless bombing, ordered by an idiot in a General's uniform, Mark Clark. What of the priceless treasures looted by the Japanese in Manila, Saigon, Bangkok, Nanjing and Singapore and countless other places? What of the millions and billions of worth in the looting of the Jews throughout Europe by the Nazis? Are the Italians without blame? Look what they did in Africa and the Balkans. Russian looting bordered on pure vandalism, destruction for destruction's sake. Who fixes that?

    C'mon- war is disaster, thievery, of both property and lives. It can never be fixed and for those who suggest they want to "repair" the insult, I suggest with sincere conviction, they are working with a personal aggrandizement agenda. They want to re-capitalize the cash cow for themselves- and that's all.

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    Bush Lawyer, that's me! TheKiwi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastermind View Post
    A sad fact of life in war. War is horrible- hell on earth. But, who can bring back the treasures of Monte Casino? All were smashed to dust by the allied senseless bombing, ordered by an idiot in a General's uniform, Mark Clark...
    Technically it was ordered by NZ General Freyburg, not by Clark. Clark could have stopped it but he was getting a lot of pressure from further up the chain to stop dallying around and get past Cassino and so chose not to.

    Clark gets a lot more grief than I think he deserves. No-one in the allied camp shined in Italy (with the exception of Free French General Juin perhaps) - the terrain made it pretty well impossible to do so.

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    Senior Member Mastermind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKiwi View Post
    Technically it was ordered by NZ General Freyburg, not by Clark. Clark could have stopped it but he was getting a lot of pressure from further up the chain to stop dallying around and get past Cassino and so chose not to.

    Clark gets a lot more grief than I think he deserves. No-one in the allied camp shined in Italy (with the exception of Free French General Juin perhaps) - the terrain made it pretty well impossible to do so.
    I guess we have read different books on it- and I served with his adopted son- who had some special insights into the mind of the man. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

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    Bush Lawyer, that's me! TheKiwi's Avatar
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    Heh, no insights quite like those gained from close personal proxmity that is for sure!

    You'll note that I didn't say the he deserved no grief, just that he gets some for things that were (IMO) out of his ability to influence. I am sure that he earned his Marcus Auerlius Clarkus title though...

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    It would be interesting if you could supply sources. I have found no instance of Sweden agreeing to return the spoils of war, not in this war nor any other. The only information I could find about the treaty of Oliwia was that the polish king had to recognize the borders of the Swedish empire (as they were at the time, including livonia) and give up his claims to the Swedish throne. The rest of the articles I can find mainly deal with the status of east prussia and such. Remember that in these wars Poland had lost 25-40% of their population and was in no position to state demands.

  8. #8

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    It would be interesting if you could supply sources. I have found no instance of Sweden agreeing to return the spoils of war, not in this war nor any other.
    That wasn't about returning the spoils of war (which were main source of Swedish income ), but about returning of libraries and archives. I can't find source in English, but this information is in Polish Wiki.
    From the other side thanks to it, that Polish archives and other monuments were looted during XVIIc. we can still see it. During WWII archives and monuments in Poland were not looted, but just destroyed and burned by Germans and lost forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almayer View Post
    That wasn't about returning the spoils of war (which were main source of Swedish income ), but about returning of libraries and archives. I can't find source in English, but this information is in Polish Wiki.
    From the other side thanks to it, that Polish archives and other monuments were looted during XVIIc. we can still see it. During WWII archives and monuments in Poland were not looted, but just destroyed and burned by Germans and lost forever.
    Those are the spoils of war.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sniffit View Post
    Those are the spoils of war.
    OK, but archives and libraries should be returned according treaty of Oliva. As I wrote, maybe it's better that they wasn't.

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    Senior Member Connaught Ranger's Avatar
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    But ... but ... what about all the stuff looted by the Wikings?

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    The family of my uncle's first wife were swedish gentry and officers in the 30 years war.
    They still had a chest with various loot from that war in their manor house.


    Also they stole, among other things, the statues in the park of Wallenstein's palace in Prague and keep them until today.
    Hard to believe that such a bunch of Metro Hipsters were once badass plundering protestant crusaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almayer View Post
    OK, but archives and libraries should be returned according treaty of Oliva. As I wrote, maybe it's better that they wasn't.
    Why should they.. I am not trolling I want to hear your arguments..

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sniffit View Post
    Why should they.. I am not trolling I want to hear your arguments..
    Google translation from note about treaty fo Oliva in Polish Wiki. I cant find any English text of treaty of Oliva.

    Poland abandoned the greater part of Livonia and Riga keeping only the part (Latgale - the south-eastern part of Livonia)
    Poland recognized the sovereignty of Prussia confirming the treaties welawsko-Bydgoszcz in 1657,
    King John II Casimir Vasa renounced his claim to the throne of Sweden on behalf of himself and his successors.
    Sweden has committed to keep the freedom of trade in the Baltic
    Sweden undertook to pay looted archives and libraries (which later complied only minimally [1]).
    The Republic was to provide the Protestants in Prussia religious tolerance, which sometimes Brandenburg used to interfere in the internal affairs of the Republic.
    http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pok%C3%B3j_oliwski_1660

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