Latvian minister tells citizens not to speak Russian

[Uncle_Vanya]

At least you have the wisdom in this thread to see that what the Estonian government is doing on their own territory is the same as what you advocate the Russian government does with its own minorities.
Thus you have avoided becoming a hypocrite. Well done.

You keep spooking us with your phantom menaces, of Muslim Caucasians and Central Asians, maybe Chinese or others, taking over Russia and bending it to their will. tommy00 might make a good wingman for you next time you decide to spin such a yarn
Nevermind the fact that you don't live in Russia whereas I do - clearly you see the looming threat before anyone else.
Yeah sure I know.. they're coming right? Once I realise it'll be too late right, they'll be at my throat already? yada yada yada yada..

I may not be in Russia, but there are many people who are that see the threat rather well.

In the meantime, Russian people are being oppressed and pushed around right now - in Estonia, in Latvia, in other places; yet you remain silent. Probably because it's at the hands of people who think in very much the same ways as you do.
Thanks, Uncle_Vanya. It seems that this is how you think the world should work, how every nation should do things - a world-wide alliance of ethno-nationalists and racists. You are even willing to forsake your own people, to achieve this.

I am not silent, and I am not forsaking anyone, I am advocating getting them out, you are advocating doing a bunch of whining so you can avoid dealing with their problems yet still feel patriotic about it.

[TheCorruptedOne]

That sounds like rubbish - the amount of Russians was never that small in Estonia.
Most of those Russians by the way were brought in for some economical roles for new industries that were rapidly being developed in Estonia but which had scarce few native specialists for yet.
Although in retrospect, knowing the tensions that it has caused - bringing in such an influx of Russians was a mistake. But things like these were not thought of at the time - nationalism on a large-scale was unthinkable to the Communist Party.

Now this is a topic you have absolutely no clue about. The population of Russians grew massively after the comrades of USSR too us in. And the immigrants were your common workers, not specialists. It would have been fine if they were. The reason why not many specialists were deployed here was that we were too close to the West (then again, the top brass of the party liked having their cottages around these parts for the same reason). For an example, after the Soviets copied Sidewinder (AA-2), a factory in Estonia produced the seekers and electronics (being on of the producers). After a while they got paranoid and moved the production deeper into Russia. In the end, we weren't really trusted even back then...

Haven't you had enough already? Your are constantly repeating your rhetoric, and topping it off with threats of rolling in the tanks. But then again, maybe some bloke living in Russia does indeed know better how things work in the Baltics than people who actually live here.

[Az_esm]

Tatars, or rather Volga Bulgars, have inhabited the area of Tatarstan for well over a thousand years, it is their native land. Russia being a Federation of nations, it is perfectly justified that Tatars get to have their language as the official language within their native area. Russians in the Baltic states have been moved there, forcibly, in the past 70 years. It is a different situation.

They've also invade us with their Mongolian buddies.

In other words, a double standard.

Nope. It's not like this Russians are moved to Baltic states in 90th-00th, seeking for money and practicing head-cutting in Balt cities and etc stuff.

I understand you on this, but the only way we can force the hand of the Baltic states in this is by placing several hundred thousand gray trench-coats into their capitol cities, and a few thousand tanks to back them up...then pray to God that NATO doesn't respond and earth doesn't get engulfed in nuclear hell-fire Obviously this is not an option, but the bigger issue for us, as concerned Russians, is not that the Estonian government is not representing our interests. The bigger issue for us is that our own government doesn't represent our interests. Once our government stands with us, rather than over us, there are options that can be pursued in relation to the problem of our people in the Baltic states and elsewhere. In my opinion focus should be on repatriation, once they are on our land we can protect them, otherwise all we can do is show our outrage which will result in absolutely nothing. And if the individual Russian living abroad has made the decision to not partake in the repatriation program which would help him/her to gain citizenship/housing/employment/pension within the borders of the Russian Federation, that should be regarded as that individual's personal decision to integrate within the society of the nation he currently resides in.

http://lurkmore.to/КМПКВ
I'm already said how I see it, I'll try from the other angle: instead of having chance to softly integrate ppl who are really close to their main ethnicities(yea, yeah, I know Balts prefers to think about themselves as about much more teh europeanz that those Ruski barbarians, even though basically their faces and skin-color are very close to each other), and thus have source to think seriously about common european demographic problem later, Baltic states from the beginning were using the "inner-enemy"(Russians) theme for nat.building and freezing social conflict. While in fact with our current and future national system in Russia - Russians in their republics are just abandoned and could be easily assimilated in 2 generations. And even the first one could be been thinking about Estonia as their real home already, not Russia since it's not Russian national state.
Maybe it's even good though, if we would finally get rid of the majority of sovok-minded with governmental power in terms of national policy and somehow will solve question of ineffective budget-spendings - the more ppl would come here. But for those ppl who were lost, humiliated, it's not. They deserves better treatment.
Not to mention that in 1000 retrospective - it's every time ends bad for such systems and ppl. C'mon, just think about - it's the ppl with same blood as those who fvcked the greatest horde back to it core and go further to the overseas, same ppl who brought Hitler to a suicide and soviet system to collapse. Who knows how the story would turn once again. Being in charge of small nation - it's better not to use the part of bigger one as pinata, even and exactly when it's not in good shape.

The mistake of nationalist Balts, Ukrainians, Chechens and others - is turning the blame for their historical suffering as a result of Stalin's decisions in the 40s or whatever else, onto Russians who just happened to be living in the wrong place at the wrong time and who ended up getting fked as a result. Not for their crimes, not for anything related to them - but just because someone decided to blame them for some injustice or percieved injustice commited against their grandfathers many decades ago by a man that died not long after.

This.

That sounds like rubbish - the amount of Russians was never that small in Estonia.

Well it was around so in 1897.

[Uncle_Vanya]

I'm already said how I see it, I'll try from the other angle: instead of having chance to softly integrate ppl who are really close to their main ethnicities(yea, yeah, I know Balts prefers to think about themselves as about much more teh europeanz that those Ruski barbarians, even though basically their faces and skin-color are very close to each other), and thus have source to think seriously about common european demographic problem later, Baltic states from the beginning were using the "inner-enemy"(Russians) theme for nat.building and freezing social conflict. While in fact with our current and future national system in Russia - Russians in their republics are just abandoned and could be easily assimilated in 2 generations. And even the first one could be been thinking about Estonia as their real home already, not Russia since it's not Russian national state.
Maybe it's even good though, if we would finally get rid of the majority of sovok-minded with governmental power in terms of national policy and somehow will solve question of ineffective budget-spendings - the more ppl would come here. But for those ppl who were lost, humiliated, it's not. They deserves better treatment.
Not to mention that in 1000 retrospective - it's every time ends bad for such systems and ppl. C'mon, just think about - it's the ppl with same blood as those who fvcked the greatest horde back to it core and go further to the overseas, same ppl who brought Hitler to a suicide and soviet system to collapse. Who knows how the story would turn once again. Being in charge of small nation - it's better not to use the part of bigger one as pinata, even and exactly when it's not in good shape.

Don't quite understand your point, sorry.

-edit-

Upon second reading I think I understand a bit of it now. Regardless of all this, how do you think Russia can twist Estonia's hand as far as its treatment of Russians? We're not going to war over this. We have little in terms of economic leverage. Seems the most pragmatic way forward is to get out as many of our people as we can by creating conditions that would make life in Russia favorable for those ex-pats compared to life in Estonia, which most of them still choose even in the face of their current status. Of course its hard to talk about anything like this, then Russia's government is uninterested and incapable of doing anything productive at home, much less figure out a way to help those stranded abroad as result of the collapse of the USSR.

[Tom`]

That sounds like rubbish - the amount of Russians was never that small in Estonia.

Take away Ivangorod and Petseri and you'll end up with a few thousands of Russians in pre-WWII Tallinn and some old believers in southern Estonia. That's pretty much it.

Was more in Latvia but most of their Russians were White Russian refugees and a large portion of them died during the war/Soviet prison camps later on. Again, you'd struggle to find a Russian in Latvia today who would've had even a single ancestor living in pre-WWII Latvia.

[Easo]

1. In the meantime, Russian people are being oppressed and pushed around right now - in Estonia, in Latvia, in other places; yet you remain silent. Probably because it's at the hands of people who think in very much the same ways as you do.
Thanks, Uncle_Vanya. It seems that this is how you think the world should work, how every nation should do things - a world-wide alliance of ethno-nationalists and racists. You are even willing to forsake your own people, to achieve this.

It's no more complex than one word - injustice.. blah blah blah


2. I have an even better precondition for attaining Estonian citizenship

Fluency in Russian. Russians will get it automatically, and non-Russians will have to pass an exam first (and occasional checks at work in order to keep their jobs), as well as swearing loyalty to the new Russian-run state and all that jazz.

Who's going to stop us? We'll just roll in with our tanks, put our ethno-mafia in power and there we go. No-one can do a damn thing about it.



3. That sounds like rubbish - the amount of Russians was never that small in Estonia.
Most of those Russians by the way were brought in for some economical roles for new industries that were rapidly being developed in Estonia but which had scarce few native specialists for yet.
Although in retrospect, knowing the tensions that it has caused - bringing in such an influx of Russians was a mistake. But things like these were not thought of at the time - nationalism on a large-scale was unthinkable to the Communist Party.

1. Sure they are being oppressed. xD
There is a reason why I told you that you should spend vacation in Latvia.

2. NATO will stop you.

3. It is not rubbish, Latvia has the same problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Latvia
Most of russian populace in Latvia was created artificially.

[Az_esm]

Don't quite understand your point, sorry.

In short - they were having source for future Estonians\Latvians, with almost same appearance and culture, only with different sournames. But instead of working on long-perspective their states have chose the way of apartheid and building nation in fear of inner-enemy which is puts off the assimilation on 1-2 generations. And since it's not very good with demography and many young ppl are leaving this countries for w.europe, who knows how it all will ends, and what would be the social tensions there.

We're not going to war over this.

I hope not, but all the history is saying that words "war", "never", and "europe"\"humans" aren't those which you should use together.

We have little in terms of economic leverage.

For now.

[Uncle_Vanya]

In short - they were having source for future Estonians\Latvians, with almost same appearance and culture, only with different sournames. But instead of working on long-perspective their states have chose the way of apartheid and building nation in fear of inner-enemy which is puts off the assimilation on 1-2 generations. And since it's not very good with demography and many young ppl are leaving this countries for w.europe, who knows how it all will ends, and what would be the social tensions there.

Estonians aren't Slavic the last time I checked. But honestly, why do we need a Russian Estonia? What benefit does that provide to the Russian nation? So far it provides only problems. If we get our people out, I am sure we can have a working relationship with the Baltic states like we do with Finland for example. And I don't blame the Russians who live in Estonia for being there of course, the Soviet government made that decision for them, they had no part in it.

I hope not, but all the history is saying than words "war", "never", and "europe"\"humans" are those which you should use together.

Look at the Eurowussies, they gave up their Empires willingly, they're completely impotent. If its going to be a war in Europe, we'll be the ones starting it, and I don't think there is enough of a reason for us to do so now or in the forseeable future, especially with the Baltics who are not a military threat. If anything, the only unstable nations on our western borders today are our "slavic brothers" Ukraine and Belorus. Also I'd be more worried about China, Europeans and Americans are "our" sons of bitches, we understand them, we know how they think, Chinese on the other hand are an unknown.

[Flamming_Python]

Haven't you had enough already? Your are constantly repeating your rhetoric, and topping it off with threats of rolling in the tanks. But then again, maybe some bloke living in Russia does indeed know better how things work in the Baltics than people who actually live here.

Will you stop being so dramatic? I'm not making any threats.
But you're right - I'm repeating my rhetoric and I've had enough already, don't even know why I bother.

[Az_esm]

Estonians aren't Slavic the last time I checked.

According to genetic research - Russians, Poles and other Balts are closest to them ppl.)
http://www.newspb.ru/allnews/1586379/
Some of their faces are really differs from ours, but for many ethnic Russians, if you'd raise them as Balts - you wouldn't guess by 100% that they are not from this origin.

But honestly, why do we need a Russian Estonia?

Nah, I was talking about possible better life for local Russians, even though it would be mean that they'd become less Russians, assimilating there more widely and thinking that their true home is Baltic states.
However another scenario has been chosen. They know that basically they are not very welcome there. Only the next generation will maybe in another mood.

Look at the Eurowussies, they gave up their Empires willingly, they're completely impotent.

Well, as I see it - it was more like reducing costs on overseas territories. Just look at situation in Mali. France need\want military operation? and it did it.
If not the SU system I guess it'd be somewhat closer for us in model, i.e. nothing of that insane spendings on central asia, autonomy for balts, finns and some caucasians(again for price of much less spendings) and developing heartland-Russia primary. Sometimes making safaris on tribe-bands at the perifery.

If its going to be a war in Europe, we'll be the ones starting it, and I don't think there is enough of a reason for us to do so now or in the forseeable future, especially with the Baltics who are not a military threat.

Yep. But there are also the future you cannot predict, if you'd try to think in scales of several generations and centuries. Everything could happen.

Also I'd be more worried about China, Europeans and Americans are "our" sons of bitches, we understand them, we know how they think, Chinese on the other hand are an unknown.

"Mystery asians" is more for stupid books and tv-shows. In reality they are same ppl, which could be and are being decoded.
I would even mention that much of their modern cultures in fact europe-made.
For China:


Lurk for the USA's military projection around China's routs of trades and supplies. Russia is the only source of logistics for them which cannot be crashed rapidly be the US and it's allies.
So it's very necessary for them to be in good or at least normal relations with us. Primary task for decades - to defend coastal line and to build the projection of power in to ocean.
And it's not like they are enjoying our weather.
In scale of centuries - yep, could be some changes. But once again, they were kind a suckers in outer-wars, while for europeans it's not even a century of all those woosie-tolerant-femine-crap for now.)

[Flamming_Python]

Chinese are actually very similar as a people and as a country to Russians in many ways. Americans too, in other ways.

BTW this thread has been infested so full of imperalism, nazism, skull-measuring equipment that it needs to be nuked from orbit in order to get rid of the stench. Cut it out already - all of you.

[JCR]

Chinese are actually very similar as a people and as a country to Russians in many ways. Americans too, in other ways.

When I met chinese I often ask myself whoever came up with the idea that asians are shy and polite
They really reminded me of Russians in both positive and negative ways...

[Flamming_Python]

When I met chinese I often ask myself whoever came up with the idea that asians are shy and polite
They really reminded me of Russians in both positive and negative ways...

Taking just the negative

The Chinese struggle with a corrupt and self-serving bureaucracy, as well as a vast class of oligarchs who live well above the means of their compatriots, they are accustomed to BS so that no-one even bats an eye when a roof falls down due to shoddy construction work or someone is completely-conned by his business partners, they are distrustful of outside influence and meddling in their country, their population was mauled by a densely populated, fascistic, more industrialised and organised neighbour in WW2, they suffered constant invasions throughout history and are obssessed with building buffers along their borders in order to ensure their own security; which neighbouring smaller states see as imperalism, in their metropolises people are rude and uncaring towards strangers, etc...

Sound familiar?

[Az_esm]

BTW this thread has been infested so full of imperalism, nazism, skull-measuring equipment that it needs to be nuked from orbit in order to get rid of the stench. Cut it out already - all of you.

Typical leftist way of solving problems: STFU and force. If we'll not speak about it - it'll disappear.)

[Uncle_Vanya]

That looks really infected.