To the Israelis and those who have served in UN-forces.

[citizen-k]

The following was written by captain Special Operations Thomas Milo:


I feel I must spell out that I find the Israeli claim that they never target civilians or UN positions, outrageous.

As an officer in the Dutch contingent of Unifil in 1980 I have personal experience of a UN observation post next to a 150 mm gun position in the southernmost hills in Lebanon overlooking the orchards all the way towards Tyre. The gun was guarded by what the UN technically referred to as De Facto Forces (DFF - Lebanese militiamen, as they weren't recognized belligerents in the sense of the Geneva Convention).

Two, three times a week a car would come in from the Israeli side of the border with a load of IDF (Israeli Defence Force) types, dressed up as civilians. Then the gun would fire a handful of rounds into the city of Tyre. Of course, as with all ordnance, they usually missed. But every once in a while, splash, in the middle of a square filled with schoolchildren. Or an apartment building. Or a marketplace. There were never camera crews around to take the ensuing scenes to a larger audience, but I assure you they weren't much different form the ones filmed at UNIFIL Fijibat post 1.11 in Qana, or the images from Sarajevo for that matter.

I visited this gun post several times and actually drank coffee with the guards, which, in a way, was my job. I observed that all the maps and plotting material was in Hebrew, as were the reference charts on the gun.

At times I had the pleasure, too, of being at the receiving end, in Tyre Barracks. Courtesy of our own UN OP next to the gun, we would hear on the military frequency that the car had arrived, when the gun was loaded and when it fired. Needless to say, no such broadcast was available to the people of Tyre. A senseless practice for which we didn't understand the military justification.

As for the shelling of the Fiji Headquarters - painted all white and its exact location known to the IDF for almost twenty years - it is impossible accept that it didn't happen on purpose.

Again from personal experience, I know that endangering UNIFIL personnel was of no concern for the IDF or the DFF when there was an opportunity to get a shot at the real enemy: AE (Armed Elements in UN parlance), usually PLO or LNM (Lebanese National Movement) infiltrants within the UN Area of Operation.

One of the tasks of UNIFIL was - and is -, of course, to try and stop any armed ingressions. So that was what we were doing all the time. A fully equipped NATO Armoured Infantry Battalion taken intact from the battle order in the North German Lowlands opposite a formidable array of Warsaw Pact Forces, Dutchbat had all the contraptions to spot them on their way in. It goes too far to explain this in detail, but we intercepted most of them.

Our infantrymen went on foot patrols, silently, set up listening posts, until they spotted movement. Then with the help of 120 mm light grenades, fired from our Heavy Weapons position in Siddiqin, they would corner the infiltration team, often four or five youngsters aged between 16 and 24 with AK 47 assault rifles and hand grenade as personal arms and a single RPG (Reaktivnyi Protivotankovyi Granatomet - Recoilless Anti-tank Grenade Launcher) as a group weapon; in other words, lightly armed.

The next move would be to call in a negotiating team - of which I was a member - from Dutchbat HQ to disarm the infiltrants. Now one needs to realise, that unlike in places like New York or Amsterdam, nights in South Lebanon are absolutely silent. The starting of a vehicle could be heard miles away.

To get to the point, if the IDF and/or DFF hadn't already opened up fire into the area covered by the light grenade, the arrival of the UN negotiation team vehicles in the area would trigger systematic 0.50 calibre machine gun fire often supported by heavy mortar rounds.

Such barrages didn't exactly contribute to a relaxed atmosphere for having a disarming encounter with a virtual suicide squad, to put it mildly. Fortunately, the firing seldom accomplished anything worth mentioning, but the intention was clearly there. It had to go wrong some time, and it did in Qana.

This is the most funny/idiotic story I have ever read about UN/IDF in Lebanon...

"IDF soldiers dressed up as civilians, come from the Israeli side, to use a gun guarded by locals..." - huh?

As for shelling Kafar Kana - the IDF knew it was a UN post (nobody ever said otherwise) that is exactly why the terrorists used it to shell Israeli cities - they knew its a safe place. (safe as IDF won't shoot them and the UN won't get in their way)

[Ichhabe]

citizen-k: Oh, there are so much you don't know about Southern Lebanon.

[citizen-k]

citizen-k: Oh, there are so much you don't know about Southern Lebanon.

Where were you on April 1996? I was in the IDF's north command post, Authrizing/Not authorizing shelling requests which came from the field.

Live there for over 20 years, know the people, speak their language, serve in a posion where I knew about everything that happened in the area - and I know nothing, right...
I'm sure that you know better...after all - your from Noway.


http://www.jafi.org.il/education/kana.html

[martinexsquaddie]

Most of the UN blue berats are put in impossible situations and given frankly idiotic ROEs. Most of the 3rd world troops don't have either the kit the training or the leadership to be much use. The irish army used to go to lebannon I saw them in action on the border shambles and when were camp fires tactical.
since 1946 the UN has been a political football between the soviets and the US since the soviets stopped playing the US does'nt want the UN being effective.
when peace support/peace enforcement works its because the Troops are equipped trained and prepared to be aggresive when neccesariy.
The effect in Bosnia cetain countries troops in lightly armoured wheeled
carriers lots of problems Brits in warrior no problems because the combatants knew the average brit squaddie would'nt mind going home with some kills if give the opportunity so the bad guys tended to avoid giving them the opportunity no blood y negociation teams

[Haiw]

citizen-k: Oh, there are so much you don't know about Southern Lebanon.

Where were you on April 1996? I was in the IDF's north command post, Authrizing/Not authorizing shelling requests which came from the field.

Live there for over 20 years, know the people, speak their language, serve in a posion where I knew about everything that happened in the area - and I know nothing, right...
I'm sure that you know better...after all - your from Noway.


http://www.jafi.org.il/education/kana.html

u weren't there in 1980...the story isnt all that 'bull****tic' (is that a word?) as u say it is...

[citizen-k]

citizen-k: Oh, there are so much you don't know about Southern Lebanon.

Where were you on April 1996? I was in the IDF's north command post, Authrizing/Not authorizing shelling requests which came from the field.

Live there for over 20 years, know the people, speak their language, serve in a posion where I knew about everything that happened in the area - and I know nothing, right...
I'm sure that you know better...after all - your from Noway.


http://www.jafi.org.il/education/kana.html

u weren't there in 1980...the story isnt all that 'bull****tic' (is that a word?) as u say it is...

Yabayeyyyy, You know where I was during the 80's? (my long lost brother or something?)

UN soldiers cooperated with terrorists in order to hurt IDF soldiers and Israeli civilians - they can only blame themselves for every bullet/shell fired at them by the IDF. (April 1996 for example)

[Ichhabe]

citizen-k said:

UN soldiers cooperated with terrorists in order to hurt IDF soldiers and Israeli civilians - they can only blame themselves for every bullet/shell fired at them by the IDF. (April 1996 for example)

Huh??? Do you really belive in that yourself???

Or?? You really do belive in that...

Well, it is up to you.

I have nothing to be ashamed for, nor any of those UN-soldiers I served with.

To bad I did not put down the name of that Israeli APC-commander throwing a grenade on me while I was occupied sheltering those 15 Lebanese men that was quite sceared when 2 IDF APC's approached them... Man, if that incident had been caught on film.

[Haiw]

Yabayeyyyy, You know where I was during the 80's? (my long lost brother or something?)

it was 1980, not the 80's...and it's called deduction... in 1980 u were still learning how to say anything different than 'mama' and 'dada'

[citizen-k]

citizen-k said:

UN soldiers cooperated with terrorists in order to hurt IDF soldiers and Israeli civilians - they can only blame themselves for every bullet/shell fired at them by the IDF. (April 1996 for example)

Huh??? Do you really belive in that yourself???

Or?? You really do belive in that...

Well, it is up to you.

I have nothing to be ashamed for, nor any of those UN-soldiers I served with.

To bad I did not put down the name of that Israeli APC-commander throwing a grenade on me while I was occupied sheltering those 15 Lebanese men that was quite sceared when 2 IDF APC's approached them... Man, if that incident had been caught on film.

"Lebanese men" as Lebanese terrorists?
(I don't recall any UN soldiors sheltering Israeli cities from been bombed or infiltrated by terrorists from Lebanon )

I'm sure you have nothing to be ashamed for - you did what you believe is best - help terrorists harm Israel.

I'm very much ashamed for all the time I have wasted marking those maps telling where NOT to bomb so UN soldiers won't get hurt, especially after what the UN soldiers and Chief general did with the 3 kidnapped soldiers. I should have used that time on marking maps of more caves and bunkers used to hide weapons by UN ally's.

You actually believe there were IDF's soldiers who wanted to kill you and failed?

[citizen-k]

To bad I did not put down the name of that Israeli APC-commander throwing a grenade on me while I was occupied sheltering those 15 Lebanese men that was quite sceared when 2 IDF APC's approached them... Man, if that incident had been caught on film.

There is one incident which was caught on film...
The one where members of a terror organization kidnaps 3 IDF's soldiers while using UN vehicles - the UN refused to hand over the film to the IDF in order to hide their part and to protect the terrorists.

But I'm sure that your film would have made 6 o'klock news headlines...

[ogukuo72]

Can anyone say what the UN ROEs are, when it comes to situation like the kidnapping of the 3 Israeli soldiers, or when Hizbollah launch rocket attacks over the border?

Ichabe, perhaps you can share what the ROEs you were operating under for the two situations above?

[Ichhabe]

citizen-k said:

I'm sure you have nothing to be ashamed for - you did what you believe is best - help terrorists harm Israel.

I had my doubts if I wanted to ask that questionon how IDF-soldiers looked upon UN-soldiers. Now you just proven me right.

Those Lebanes men were ordinary Lebanes civilians standing outside the UN-camps selling video films and music cassettes to UN-soldiers. But you wont belive me of course no matter what I say.

I'm very much ashamed for all the time I have wasted marking those maps telling where NOT to bomb so UN soldiers won't get hurt, especially after what the UN soldiers and Chief general did with the 3 kidnapped soldiers. I should have used that time on marking maps of more caves and bunkers used to hide weapons by UN ally's.

Be so ashamed you want to. i am not ashamed for all those nights I've been out searching for road side bombs meant for the IDF. Or those nights on patrol looking for infiltrators. Neither of those incidents were we followed the IDF so they knew we had an eye on them. I was a UN-soldier and was supposed to be neutral. But that is a word you'll never going to be able to understand.

You actually believe there were IDF's soldiers who wanted to kill you and failed?

Where did I say that he was trying to kill me? I said he threw a grenade after me. What I saw out of the situation was that those IDF-soldiers wanted to try some trick against them Lebanese. I went back and stood as a shield between the IDF and those men. I knew that if they tried to shoot, those bullets had to pass me. I figuered that 15 killed Lebanese would not be mentioned on the news, but if a UN-soldier got killed it would.
But as I said; It turned out to be a smoke- or CS-grenade that he threw at me. I do know the Killing-effectiviness of the IDF, so you don't need to leacture me on that.

And you are one of many reasons that it is so hard to be a friend of Israel these days,...aiii.

Well, good luck with your nation building. You gonna need that.

[Ichhabe]

Can anyone say what the UN ROEs are, when it comes to situation like the kidnapping of the 3 Israeli soldiers, or when Hizbollah launch rocket attacks over the border?

Ichabe, perhaps you can share what the ROEs you were operating under for the two situations above?

When I was down there we did not get to work after the UN-resolutuion 425 and 426. ( http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/mission...ackground.html )

We could not "butt" in when to sides had their clashes. And Israel was recogniced as a country that occupied Southern Lebanon with its rights and dutys under what the geneva-convention said.

And to answer how much the UN cooperate with Hizbollah maybe from the same url as the above you can red this:

The Secretary-General also remained concerned about the restriction of movement on UNIFIL personnel, who must be able to carry out their mandate. In the most serious incident, on 4 April, about 15 Hezbollah personnel forced an Observer Group Lebanon patrol south-west of Kafr Shuba to stop at gunpoint and assaulted the observers with rifle butts, injuring three, one seriously.

But citizen-k will surely say that these are propaganda and lies from the UN.

I cannot remember the ROE we had back in 86-87. But belive me. We were not allowed to shoot back unless our lifes was threatend. The only way to know when that was, were when the first man falled. Sometimes UN-soldiers just had to stand as calmly as possible when bullets passed their head. Or when one side wanted to test the "cowboy-dancing" against them. This was done by all sides, Hizbollah, IDF, SLA or whatever gunnut out there.

But for my concern, this is last years snow or water under the bridge. I mainly have the good memories from that part of the world.

[seventy6er]

Citizen-k is a great example why this hatred and war, these clashes will never find an end. Because you got too many guys like HIM on both sides... Sad but true...

[citizen-k]

Citizen-k is a great example why this hatred and war, these clashes will never find an end. Because you got too many guys like HIM on both sides... Sad but true...

Guys like me?

I was the one protecting the UN soldiers in Lebanon since the IDF is NOT

referring them as enemy. (pointing where shelling is ok and where it's not)

I have REAL friends from Lebanon, so did my father and grandfather -

long before the UN came and my son will have friends years after they

will leave.


UN soldiers DID assist to the kidnappers, they took a film of the act itself -
which they hid from the Israeli government.


UN soldires DID gave shelter to Hizbullah terrorists so they could shell

Israeli cities near their post in KAfar-Kana.


UN soldiers DID expose IDF's units in Lebanon when ever they could in

order to prevent them from stoping Hizbullah attacks on IDF's posts and

Israeli cities.


The question was how did the IDF refer to the UN in Lebanon:


The IDF DID NOT refer the UN as enemy - but also didn't relay on it.