Thread: Ukraine discussion thread - Veer off topic at own risk

  1. #1981
    Senior Member African-European's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dforce View Post
    Sure, then nobody could have blamed Russia with a straight face. It would have been just like the Georgia debacle.
    Even if Russia intervened after its citizens were attacked or killed, it still would have be critized anyway so they thought why bother? Hence these preveemtive measures. They didn't want to repeat the 8.8.8 scenario where it took them an entire day to respond while their peacekeepers were getting shelled. This is just my thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaito View Post
    I was wondering about that. For a while I thought it was just a confusion tactic, by now I think that might be just a means to not antagonize the locals by parading around with the Russian flags. Right now they don't look like they're capturing the place for mother Russia, they're kinda just there like the landscape - quiet and polite.
    That's what I think too, try to be as subtle as possible while being lampshaded.

  3. #1983
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holmes85 View Post
    You forget that a number of those troops are wearing uniforms with no identifications marks.
    Which troops? the several hundred soldiers out and about in Crimea? Those guys are the easy ones to count...that's the easy part.

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    Saw this :
    The Russian envoy to the UN, Vitaliy Churkin, has refused to be drawn on whether he agrees with the OSCE observer mission, after his British counterpart Mark Lyall Grant presses him on the matter.
    Wasnt watching the live feed, is it true?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fork1 View Post
    No one really contests that part. The issue is the preliminary deployments of troops without imminent threats to the russian speaking people.
    But looking at the facts so far - what did this deployment actually do negatively as far as effects on the local populatuion go? Russian troops are sitting there idle looking like sad and bored (but polite) pandas from under those balaclavas, while "besieged" Ukranian troops are pretty allowed to go about their business with an exception of the stare-at-attention brigade at the gate (hope they rotate those poor souls once in a while). There is no death and destruction or even a hint at it. Everything seems calm and relaxed under this "armed aggression and occupation".

    But looks like it'll be time to draw down soon anyways. Crimea already got a bigger airforce and navy from Ukranian units that switched sides than most countries. Plus several brigades worth of land units. Enough assets to protect themselves.

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    China threatens the U.S. with economic sanctions if they persist with their position regarding Ukraine.

    China says they will demand the US to pay it's debt.

    (spanish)
    http://www.larepublica.es/2014/03/ch...cto-a-ucrania/

    If this is true...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dforce View Post
    Ah, so you have some kind of crystal ball? You know what kind of example that will give others? "I better attack France, in ten years time Antichrist will be born"
    Meh, I distinctly remember some countries invading another because "WMDs could be ready to be launched on our cities in 45 minutes", even tho there was no logic behind such reasoning. Also at that time those countries didn't give a shyt about UN opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sashko View Post
    But looks like it'll be time to draw down soon anyways. Crimea already got a bigger airforce and navy from Ukranian units that switched sides than most countries. Plus several brigades worth of land units. Enough assets to protect themselves.
    This is also interesting. Do we have any non-partisan sources that tells about this more in detail?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fork1 View Post
    Saw this :


    Wasnt watching the live feed, is it true?
    Yes. It looked like he didn't have authority to discuss the subject in that forum.

  10. #1990
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sashko View Post
    But looks like it'll be time to draw down soon anyways. Crimea already got a bigger airforce and navy from Ukranian units that switched sides than most countries. Plus several brigades worth of land units. Enough assets to protect themselves.
    I truly hope so.

  11. #1991
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    I just saw the Kyiv post guy on CNN. The guy that said he witnessed Russian Navy issue an ultimatum to Ukrainian Naval personnel. He was asked directly and I quote, "precisely what did you hear from the Russians?"
    He said he heard a voice from the Russian ship telling the Ukrainians to join them....That's all.
    I'm trying to locate the "ultimatum" buried somewhere in the Russian statement. I hope CNN uploads the video.

    Too many propaganda flying about. Plenty from the Russian side as well...like claiming refugee influx from Ukraine, and lives in imminent danger etc.

  12. #1992
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZapB View Post
    Meh, I distinctly remember some countries invading another because "WMDs could be ready to be launched on our cities in 45 minutes", even tho there was no logic behind such reasoning. Also at that time those countries didn't give a shyt about UN opinion.
    Well, wait one minute here. I have never defended any such country, so what are you talking about? If I steal a car, does that give you the right to steal one as well?

  13. #1993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asheren View Post
    You are aware that following this kind of logic in diplomacy is dangerous. Following such legitimacy Poland should invade Belarus tomorrow for example.
    Agreed, it's not an ideal solution for sure. Dangerous and bordering reckless too. Don't know if they were that sure or just took a gamble that Ukrainian military in the region wouldn't start shooting right away. Though after seeing how masked gunmen roaming Kiev aren't stopped or disarmed, maybe I shouldn't be surprised that they pulled it off without a shot fired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hisroyalhighness View Post
    There's the other side of the argument.

    Though we don't exactly see a clear and present danger to Ethnic Russians in Crimea by Ukrainian Nationalists before the intervention.

    If there's a high number of paramilitaries mobilizing to go into Crimea then sure, but otherwise I don't see any current threats.
    Yes, the Crimeans were in no immediate danger as far as I could tell at the time. Maybe Russian intel knew something more, maybe not.
    Seeing how a good part of the Crimean military seems to have switched sides, they probably wouldn't have followed the order to shoot up crimeans anyway and preparations of "friendhip trains" from western Ukraine would have been spotted early enough I assume. I dunno what the deal was. I hope it wasn't just a stupid, opportunistic land grab, but who knows. There is a possibility that Putin just went "they'll complain for a decade, but at least we'll have Crimea", dunno. I'd be disappointed if that was the case.

  14. #1994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acheron View Post
    Didn't see you or any US official having problems about elections held under US guns in Afghanistan or Iraq. The election results were hailed as "free and democratic". Double standards maybe?
    That's generalizing buddy, your casting an entire population under one category. Now stop being a Hypocrite.
    Last edited by Holmes85; 03-03-2014 at 07:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dforce View Post
    Well, wait one minute here. I have never defended any such country, so what are you talking about? If I steal a car, does that give you the right to steal one as well?
    No it means that those today that are screaming about "violation of international law" didn't care about it when they were the attacking side. Preach by example. I'm not justifying Russian move btw.

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