Thread: Ukraine discussion thread. Or the original Butthurt thread

  1. #1981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hisroyalhighness View Post
    x2.

    If Crimeans had chosen to break free and the New Regime attacked Crimea and killed Ethnic Russians, then by all means deploy forces.
    You finally allow Russians to deploy forses after dosens of Russians will be killed? Thank you! Will sit and wait until then...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
    Sounds like the 16,000 is in addition to what was already there.
    Can that number (of additional troops) be confirmed (or plausibly estimated) in any way? cos it would be quite normal for Ukraine to exaggerate troop levels and for Russia to understate it.
    That last confirmation coming from the US side of things was for the 1500 troops flown into Crimea earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Universals View Post
    While true, you have to keep in mind that power has already improperly changed hands in Kiev and folks in power in Kiev isn't very sympathetic with Crimea.
    Russia only escalated that situation with their invasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke2 View Post
    Well how could they try him if he run away?

    My understanding of the impeachment process (and I am no laywer so I may be way off here) is that when impeached the person is removed from his/her position and then tried.

    Or are you claiming that the person being impeached should remain in position until a lenghty trial is over? That sounds rather strange to me.
    Well, the legitimacy of the impeaching institution is not impeccable either. They pretty much had the Rada under street thug guard. No police, only loyalist Right Sector et al street fighters to provide "protection". Can we speak of a regular and valid parliamentary procedure when PoR deputies are in fear for their safety and their offices are ransacked? Let us be honest here.

    And Yanukovich is simply a crook but the Maidan crowd is hardly legitimate themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthenius View Post
    These asumptions are absolutely irrelevant unless legal court finds them proved. Shall we talk about legitimacy's level of the putchist government again?
    A very simple. He was removed from power due to his absence. Legit.
    It does not matter at this point if he was aftraid for his life since he litteraly vanished and authorites were unable to find wherever he was. By the time he showed up there was massive incriminating evidenca aginst him.
    This can be considered that he fleed to avoid prosecution and would make a damn solid case in court consdering that he was trying to destroy evidence. Soo when he unvanished he was already a wanted fugitive making him by definition incapable of leading the country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olegi1 View Post
    You finally allow Russians to deploy forses after dosens of Russians will be killed? Thank you! Will sit and wait until then...
    At least it will be justified, plus no one will cry "Russian Aggression" and we won't have this diplomatic and economic row.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olegi1 View Post
    You finally allow Russians to deploy forses after dosens of Russians will be killed? Thank you! Will sit and wait until then...
    /SARCASM
    Quick! Poles and German minorities in Kaliningrad are oppressed and might be harmed in the future - lets take over that place with Polish and German army and after that lets hold referendum......

    /SARCASM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Universals View Post
    Can that number (of additional troops) be confirmed (or plausibly estimated) in any way? cos it would be quite normal for Ukraine to exaggerate troop levels and for Russia to understate it.
    That last confirmation coming from the US side of things was for the 1500 troops flown into Crimea earlier.
    You forget that a number of those troops are wearing uniforms with no identifications marks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hisroyalhighness View Post
    x2.

    If Crimeans had chosen to break free and the New Regime attacked Crimea and killed Ethnic Russians, then by all means deploy forces.
    that would have looked better on TV - though even then you'd get the same kind of crap as in 888 war. At least one advantage might be that Russia has shown it means business, so shooting doesn't start in the first place. If it came after shooting started, it would have had to be shooting too, at Ukrainians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dforce View Post
    That is very true, just as in the case of Argentina and the Falklands, or India and Pakistan, or any such mutual dislikes. However, that do not give another country the right to meddle, and especially so if there is no real threat to the locals. Russia have real reasons to care about the area in question, and those should be concidered, but it acted premature and stupid here.
    Well, now we got to this topic of troop deployment.

    I am not rather versed in what happened in the beggining but did not Crimean acting authorities pretty much kick out PoR cadres out of the assembly and I believe they made a call to Russians? Or they simply started appearing on the streets?

    In any case, from a legal standpoint, we would need to study what allowances they BSF has under the treaty they (I guess still) have between Russia and Ukraine.

    How fast did the new Crimean authorities call for support?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olegi1 View Post
    You finally allow Russians to deploy forses after dosens of Russians will be killed? Thank you! Will sit and wait until then...
    Ah, so you have some kind of crystal ball? You know what kind of example that will give others? "I better attack France, in ten years time Antichrist will be born"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaito View Post
    that would have looked better on TV - though even then you'd get the same kind of crap as in 888 war. At least one advantage might be that Russia has shown it means business, so shooting doesn't start in the first place. If it came after shooting started, it would have had to be shooting too, at Ukrainians.
    There's the other side of the argument.

    Though we don't exactly see a clear and present danger to Ethnic Russians in Crimea by Ukrainian Nationalists before the intervention.

    If there's a high number of paramilitaries mobilizing to go into Crimea then sure, but otherwise I don't see any current threats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaito View Post
    that would have looked better on TV - though even then you'd get the same kind of crap as in 888 war. At least one advantage might be that Russia has shown it means business, so shooting doesn't start in the first place. If it came after shooting started, it would have had to be shooting too, at Ukrainians.
    You are aware that following this kind of logic in diplomacy is dangerous. Following such legitimacy Poland should invade Belarus tomorrow for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaito View Post
    that would have looked better on TV - though even then you'd get the same kind of crap as in 888 war. At least one advantage might be that Russia has shown it means business, so shooting doesn't start in the first place. If it came after shooting started, it would have had to be shooting too, at Ukrainians.
    Basically, I think this is true. Russian acted after several of the soldiers were dead in 888 and it was still condemned as aggression no matter what. And I would add that there might have been some precedent set with "preemptive" action and such terms as not a war or an invasion but "kinetic military action" already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asheren View Post
    You are aware that following this kind of logic in diplomacy is dangerous. Following such legitimacy Poland should invade Belarus tomorrow for example.
    But has the precedent on this been set already?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holmes85 View Post
    You forget that a number of those troops are wearing uniforms with no identifications marks.
    I was wondering about that. For a while I thought it was just a confusion tactic, by now I think that might be just a means to not antagonize the locals by parading around with the Russian flags. Right now they don't look like they're capturing the place for mother Russia, they're kinda just there like the landscape - quiet and polite.

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