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Thread: Russian Tanks in Eastern Ukraine

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    Member Elfstone44's Avatar
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    Default Russian Tanks in Eastern Ukraine

    US State Department says this is "unacceptable"...presumably a first strike with a pocket book will follow:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/wo...-mariupol.html

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    Senior Member Maximmmm's Avatar
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    Can we please not spawn more ungodly offspring of the Ukraine thread. This has been discussed there already.

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    Member Elfstone44's Avatar
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    Maxim...US State Department has vigorously protested something....that is of course the subject....the deadly efficiency of John Kerry/State protests and red line warnings under this administration.

    And it is very interesting from a realpolitik, Machiavellian observer's point of view..how Putin picks his moments.
    -- 2008 in Georgia...US Presidential election with GWBush effectively emasculated due to US banking meltdown, on-coming election, Lame duck status, involvement in two wars and having to deal with a hostile Congress under the control of anti-war/anti-military Democrats.
    -- 2014 in Crimea....US President who has failed to live up to his rhetoric anywhere with a Ukraine in turmoil and NATO and the EU worried about their trade deficits and vacations and expressos.
    -- 2014 in Eastern Ukraine ....ditto above and add a chaotic situation in Libya, Egypt, Syria and Afghanistan and an unbelievable failure of leadership and action in Iraq along with AQIM in Africa and a Europe on strike over "Uber-taxis".

    Wait till North Korea and Iran explode their bombs, and North Korea does some new atrocity in South Korea and at the same time China sinks a couple of Vietnam and Philippine warships in the S.China sea....Putin will seize the moment...Good bye to the Ukrainian Black Sea Coast.
    Last edited by Elfstone44; 06-14-2014 at 01:42 AM.

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    Senior Member Maximmmm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfstone44 View Post
    Maxim...US State Department has vigorously protested something....that is of course the subject....the deadly efficiency of John Kerry/State protests and red line warnings under this administration.
    I guess that true, but considering the statement is based on an outright, and already disproved lie, it falls mostly under the topic of the continuing propaganda war against Russia. And that quagmire is better left in the Ukraine thread.
    At least Assad actually had chemical weapons.

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    Senior Member K-5's Avatar
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    The tanks are Ukrainian made and opreated T-64BV, Russia has no supply of. Separatists' armed forces leader claimed 3 tanks were captured from Ukrainian army while refiting earlier this week, press largely took official Kiev's side of the story, or ignored Girkin claims altogether, saying it was a lie until yesterday when locals shot a video of the three T-64 driving in the town of Totez, which Ukraine's UNN agency, BBC and CNN rushed to call an evidence of Russian T-72s...

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    Peacemaker Zorro C9's Avatar
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    What lie?

    ......

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    Senior Member K-5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorro C9 View Post
    What lie?

    ......
    That they were captured by DPR militia on the 9th.

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    Peacemaker Zorro C9's Avatar
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    Ah.

    .......

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    Member Elfstone44's Avatar
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    So the US State Department protested captured Ukranian tanks which are operating in Eastern Ukraine. All that intelligence...all that all-source stuff pouring into the US intelligence agencies which then was the basis to formulate a protest. And, Military Photos knows best....it turns out to be all fake? Ah...so....I see....said the blind man.

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    Senior Member Maximmmm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfstone44 View Post
    So the US State Department protested captured Ukranian tanks which are operating in Eastern Ukraine. All that intelligence...all that all-source stuff pouring into the US intelligence agencies which then was the basis to formulate a protest. And, Military Photos knows best....it turns out to be all fake? Ah...so....I see....said the blind man.
    Considering the fact many of us here actually know a bit about the tanks in question, as opposed to the US gov, the Ukrainian Gov/media, the US media and the western population in general, which first said it was T-72's, then T-70?! then finally T-64's with a whole slew of ideas of their origin before just blaming it on Russia as always. Combined with the fact that there is primo footage of the tanks available to make the deductions from and witnesses from the ground in eastern Ukraine. Yeah mp.net really does know best.

    And that's not even considering the countless lies and factually wrong or contradicting statements issued by the Ukrainians and picked up instantly by western media and governments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorro C9 View Post
    Ah. .......
    Moreover, Ukrainian government first reported that "a column" of Russian T-72s/other heavy weaponry violated the border, then they changed the news that it was 3 T-72, and after videos appeared showing clearly T-64BV they were saying that it were 3 Russian T-64. Unfortunately for them, all Russian stock of T-64 was scrapped years ago, and all tanks captured in Crimea were returned.

    So it seems that US gov/media receives this bullsh1t information directly from Ukr gov. Frankly speaking this is a serious fail of US diplomacy and intelligence to trust sources like new Urk minister

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    Senior Member KillerBD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfstone44 View Post
    Maxim...US State Department has vigorously protested something....that is of course the subject....the deadly efficiency of John Kerry/State protests and red line warnings under this administration.

    And it is very interesting from a realpolitik, Machiavellian observer's point of view..how Putin picks his moments.
    -- 2008 in Georgia...US Presidential election with GWBush effectively emasculated due to US banking meltdown, on-coming election, Lame duck status, involvement in two wars and having to deal with a hostile Congress under the control of anti-war/anti-military Democrats.
    -- 2014 in Crimea....US President who has failed to live up to his rhetoric anywhere with a Ukraine in turmoil and NATO and the EU worried about their trade deficits and vacations and expressos.
    -- 2014 in Eastern Ukraine ....ditto above and add a chaotic situation in Libya, Egypt, Syria and Afghanistan and an unbelievable failure of leadership and action in Iraq along with AQIM in Africa and a Europe on strike over "Uber-taxis".

    Wait till North Korea and Iran explode their bombs, and North Korea does some new atrocity in South Korea and at the same time China sinks a couple of Vietnam and Philippine warships in the S.China sea....Putin will seize the moment...Good bye to the Ukrainian Black Sea Coast.
    Part of me sees your worries here and understands. Nice doomsday prediction. Not saying it necessarily far off, or impossible... But this is kind of blissfully ignorant in a certain way as well.

    All of these situations indirectly affect the US, if at all. Strategically we are losing some clout in economic gains, but at the same time we are paving (or trying to) the way for others.

    Egypt seems to have fallen out of our favor as of late, but this might just be short-term. To list the others you mention; Georgia, Libya, Egypt, Syria, and Afghanistan are all not in very good standing (economically, influentially, strategically) to the US. This is bound to happen, especially in places of turmoil like Libya/Afghanistan/Syria. Georgia is an interesting case indeed, maybe now that Saakashvili is gone things might look brighter for them. The worst Egypt may attempt to do, is close the Suez canal, but I doubt that. Anyway the US still has more than enough pull/influence/ties/trade all around the globe to keep 'ol Russ Bear jealous. If this is the real gist of your argument...

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    Yowza. 123 Book's Avatar
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    Oh look is Russ T-72! Oh nvm is T-64BV. Yea look same both Russ Ukraine use the Soviet tank.

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    Senior Member moosefoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfstone44 View Post
    So the US State Department protested captured Ukranian tanks which are operating in Eastern Ukraine. All that intelligence...all that all-source stuff pouring into the US intelligence agencies which then was the basis to formulate a protest. And, Military Photos knows best....it turns out to be all fake? Ah...so....I see....said the blind man.
    The US State Department published a photo of Chechen GRU officer Khamzat Gayrbekov in Georgia 2008, and claimed it was Terek Cossack Alexander Mozhaev in Slaviansk 2014 even though the resemblance was superficial at best. That turned out to be the result of extremely laughable Twitter Photoshop memes. It's mindblowing.

    They also showed a photo of a group of Cossacks in Slaviansk 2014 and claimed it was a photo from Georgia 2008, in order to compare it to another photo from Slaviansk 2014 and imply that the same people were in "both" places. Seriously.

    Basically it was a string of outrageously bad and contrived "intel" to be frank, and they mindlessly relayed it (it originated with the proven mythomaniacs in Kiev).

    Likewise, the US State Department mindlessly relayed the outrageously silly Kiev "theories" about a rebel MANPADS missile that went awry and exploded 18 times in succession in a 300 feet long path, laying waste to a community park in Lugansk and killing about a dozen people, including five women. This even though it was crystal clear that the series of explosions were caused by an Ukrainian Su-25 that launched a volley of S-8KO unguided rockets with the intention of striking the Lugansk City Hall where some of the LPR administrative people were working. Kiev denied it, and that was enough for the US State Department to mindlessly follow suit.

    This is no different from those proven lies. The tanks are Ukrainian-made, Ukrainian-operated T-64BVs that were captured on June 9th outside Lugansk after an intense clash between rebels and the Ukrainian army, as reported Monday this week. These tanks were reported being refurbished by Kiev at the Lviv Mechanical Maintenance Plant a few weeks ago, and sent to Eastern Ukraine last week. The destroyed BM-21 that the US State Department claims came from Russia was also an Ukrainian-operated ditto that was attacked by a rebel group outside the town of Dobropolye and subsequently put out of action, forcing the Ukrainians to abandon it.

    This has been going on ever since this whole mess began. Hell, it all began with extremely silly allegations, such as US and Kiev officials claiming that obvious (to anyone who knows a bit about the Kalash) mid-1980's Soviet AK-74s were hypermodern Russian Spetsnaz "AK-100s" (a model that does not even exist, by the way) and so on.

    Face it, they're lying through their teeth. It's simple. So yes, Military Photos does know better and I am sure that the CIA does too, it's just that they ain't got nothing to further the agenda so they keep quiet and the US State Department can always blame a foreign source (Kiev) if things catch up with them, steering clear of any personal responsibility and avoiding criticism of their own intelligence assets.

    Besides, since when did obvious lies stop anybody? Everyone does it, and the US doesn't seem to have lost one bit of credibility despite numerous outright debacles over the past decade, where blatant lies have started wars and ended with the suffering of millions of people and the deaths of thousands of US servicemen and women. Just pretend like it never happened, push on, people are forgetful it seems and they're damn glad they are.
    Last edited by moosefoot; 06-14-2014 at 02:34 AM. Reason: fixed dates

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    Senior Member moosefoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexMartin View Post
    Moreover, Ukrainian government first reported that "a column" of Russian T-72s/other heavy weaponry violated the border, then they changed the news that it was 3 T-72, and after videos appeared showing clearly T-64BV they were saying that it were 3 Russian T-64. Unfortunately for them, all Russian stock of T-64 was scrapped years ago, and all tanks captured in Crimea were returned.

    So it seems that US gov/media receives this bullsh1t information directly from Ukr gov. Frankly speaking this is a serious fail of US diplomacy and intelligence to trust sources like new Urk minister
    Yeah, according to the 2013 report by the International Institute for Strategic Studies, Russia had scrapped all T-64s they had in storage by 2012. This ties well in with the latest large-scale scrapping program that was announced sometime in 2009 with the goal of melting down and recycling some 15,000 steel beasts in storage that were turning into rust piles of no conceivable military use. Yeah, prior to scrapping most of these weren't exactly in good condition and this so-called "storage" tended to be in open air at some derelict military base where the tanks were more or less stacked on top of each other as the jungle slowly grew up around them.

    Ukraine on the other hand has thousands of them officially in service and active refurbishment programmes, and the ones seen here were identical to Ukraines current T-64BVs so there you go...

    But I guess Russia resurrected some forgotten wreckages out of a Siberian swamp somewhere and managed to refurbish them in such a timely fashion as to have them readied and shipped to Ukraine on a moments notice when it became apparent that Ukraine had deployed their T-64s in the region, providing the Russians with plausible deniability. That seems to be the ludicrous story Kiev is sticking to, anyway.

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