The Invasion of Poland

[Kitsune]

This is a short but well researched (I think) account of the German invasion of Poland in September 1939:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/polcamp.htm

It also addresses myths sourrounding the campaign like the alleged destruction of the Polish airforce on the ground or the legendary horse charges of Polish lancers against German tanks. It also gives detailed numbers for the casualties of both sides (and the Soviet one).

Does anyone here disagree with this? Any comments are welcome!

[GazB]

"German invasion began with an air raid on undefended city of Wielun at 4:40am. Over 1200 people were killed in first warcrime of World War II. "

Is wrong for a start. You don't actually believe the Nazis were nice to the Czechs and Slovaks, or even the Austrians that didn't support their annexation. On the Pacific front the Japanese were already doing lots of bad things to the Chinese etc. (Just because the Commonwealth joined the war with the invasion of Poland doesn't mean that was the start of WWII any more than December 7th 1941 was the start of the Pacific war.)

[EvanL]

WW2 was started in 1932 when the Japanese invaded Manchuria.

[James]

Or perhaps Versailles in 1919 .

[Kitsune]

Well, as far as Austria is concerned , there weren't any air raids on their cities. Most of their population supported the Nazis. (Not all of them, but thats also true for Germany itself). Austrians were treated as Germans and participated in the war as well as in the Holocaust related crimes. (Even over-proportionally for their populational size. Hitler was an Austrian by the way. So was Eichmann). Only later when the war wasn't going well for Germany anymore, they started "realizing" that they were different from the Germans. And after the war they knew it for certain. The postwar Republic of Austria was based on the myth that they were "the first victim" of Nazi aggression. A neat way of sidestepping any guilt. (The Austrian way of thinking is that Hitler was a German...and Beethoven an Austrian. )

As far as the beginning of WW2 is concerned: Historians have decided to let the war begin with the invasion of Poland. Thats just how it is. Complain if you must, but don't mess with them.
Never forget: historians possess a power even the gods don't have...they can change things that already have happened.

[James]

I am an historian! :P

[Seiyuuki]

Somebody got a time machine!!!

[Maciek]

Does anyone here disagree with this? Any comments are welcome!

some 900 tanks


Tanks:
169 Vickers 7TP (11 t)
52 Vickers (6 t)
67 Renault M 17 FT (from WWI)
53 Renault R 35

693 small armoured vehicles(TK/TKS)

Armoured cars:
14 of type 29
86 of type 34

Armoured trains:
15 (11 other sourse)
5 heavy
3 medium
2 light
4 other(4 improvised)

[Maciek]

5 other trains

[GazB]

"As far as the beginning of WW2 is concerned: Historians have decided to let the war begin with the invasion of Poland."

I think you'll find that is western historians. I doubt Chinese Historians will agree, let alone other countries in Asia who were victims of Japanese expansion during the period before 1939, or even 41.

When anthropology was just becoming a real science... rather than treasure seeking expeditions or crusty old men who lived in libraries and read everything those explorers wrote of their travels... it was realised that for a long period in civilised western culture not much happened. The result was that they created a history based on druids and robin hood and King Arthur. They really don't know who built Stone Henge, but created a history for themselves so that they didn't look so boring and uncivilised at a time when civilisations in the Middle East, Africa, and China were thriving and creating things like mathematics and printing presses.

[Kitsune]

@GazB:

I think You are absolutely right there. These things are totally subjective. For example: there are a few historians who proposed that the war now known as the 7 years war could be termed the first World War, since it was fought in Europe, the Americas and Asia. But, well, it is not termed thus, we usually call it the 7 years war...
And of course: We tend to emphasize the European/American view of things, simply because Europe and the US were dominant during the last 200 years. This was not always so. And perhaps will change in the future again.
Its all convention. But we should stick to it for the time being, so that we know what we are talking about! The great war in the middle of the 20th century is WWII not WWIII...and it went from 1939 to 1945...

[He219]

GazB, you really crack me up

A revisionist historian could also deduce the following:

China became colonized by European powers back in the 19th century, leading to anexation of Manchuria by the Russians, then the Japanese who aquired posessions after the Russo-Japanese War of 1904. Japan's expansion into Korea to gain a foothold in China during the 1930's preceeded by China's fragmention into warlordism in the 1920's certainly were not the start of hostilities. Try the Boxer Rebellion - but that would hardly be a meaningful start to WWII.

For that we have to go to the rape of Germany through the Treaty of Versailles and the resentment that directly led to the continuation of hostilities in WWII. Interestingly enough, the Hall of Mirrors at the Palace of Versailles is site of German Unification during the 1871 Franco-Prussian War with the Crowning of Kaiser Wilhelm I. The Versaille Treaty was signed in that famous railcar that Hitler accepted the French surrender in, decades later.

So it falls to the events that started WWI that link hostilites in WWII, GazB. I blame your pro-Serbian nationalist buddiy named Gavrilo Princip who assasinated the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, Franz Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria in Sarajevo, Bosnia, as the culprit...

[James]

Ah, history afficianados... Nice to know that you're here.

[Kitsune]

You're wrong He219.
Gavrilo Princip was on his way home when he stumbled into Franz Ferdinands car by sheer coincidence...the driver had lost his way in the narrow streets of Sarajavo. His incompetence led to WWI! He is the true culprit.

[He219]

Nice, kitsune!

by sheer coincidence...the driver had lost his way

But it warrants correction:

Nedjelko Cabrinovic threw the bomb that glanced off Franz Ferdinand's arm as the Archduke deflected it away from his wife Sophie. The bomb glanced off Franz Ferdinand's arm, bounced off his folded car top and into the street behind them. The explosion injured about a dozen spectators. The fragments also injured Lieutenant Colonel Merizzi, the Bosnian Governor General Oskar Potoirek's chief adjutant, with an injury to the back of his head.

The Archduke did not wish to cancel his visit to the museum and lunch at the Governor's residence, but wished to alter his plans to include a visit to Merizzi in the hospital. The same motorcade set out along the Appel Quay, but neither the Mayor's driver, nor Franz Ferdinand's driver had been informed of the change in schedule. This would have been Merizzi's job.

The Mayor, Fehim Effendi Curcic in his car, followed by Franz Ferdinand's car turned off the Appel Quay and onto Franz Joseph Street, as originally planned, to travel to the museum. General Potoirek leaned forward. "What is this? This is the wrong way! We're supposed to take the Appel Quay!" The driver put on the brakes and began to back up. Franz Ferdinand's car stopped directly in front of Moritz Schiller's food store where Gavrilo Princip was getting a sandwich.

Therefore it was a direct result of Cabrinovic's actions, and Princip was still the trigger man. He shot Sophie in the head and Ferdinand in the chest before his gun jammed. The conspiritor's guns and bombs were supplied by the Serbian Ujedinjenje ili Smrt.

Have a great day!