The Invasion of Poland

[Russian Texan]

Things that undermine his credibility the most:

1. Anyone who is familiar whith the Russian military will tell you that its description and relationships with in it, although true in some places, but overall grossly exaggerated and tailored for better selling in the west.

2. All of the leading Russian historians disagree on most of the numbers that he provides (I'm reffering to WW2)

3. If he was an active resident (spy), when did he have the time to go through all of those secret historical documents and archives? And who would give him such an access?

4. He is a defector who is bitter at his native country and has to make a living somehow. This alone should raise questions about his objectivnes.

And now the facts that completely destroy his credibility (IMHO):

He claims that he is sentenced to death by KGB and nevertheless he openly travels, appears on TV and in movies, makes public appearances during his books presentations and so on. Somehow it is hard to believe that KGB couldn't get off a shot in 25 years...

His book "Spetsnaz" WOW... I don't even want to go into the detailed description of all missinformation and fiction collected in that work of art, I am just going to say one thing: How can a man of his physical built and his eyesight and I'm not talking about his present day pictures, I am talking about his old/younger pictures, be a Spetsnaz member. Ofcourse may be back then Spetsnaz recruited among obesity ****e geek midgets...

Anyway you look at it, there are a lot of things that just don't add up in his books and career if you start paying attention to details, but it doesn't matter because he writes what sells therefore publishers are happy and he is laughing all the way to the bank.

[GazB]

I'll admit it has been a while since I read his work, but from memory he claimed to be an oficer in the GRU. His links therefore to spetsnaz would be as an officer in their organisation. I particularly remember him talking about observing an exercise where the soldiers trying to get into spetsnaz had to go on a long run in heavy rain conditions with full gear and the part he saw where they had to run to the middle of a bridge and jump off the middle into the freezing waters of a river. As the observation post was some distance from the bridge and those observing didn't have any life saving equipment he asked the other officer there what to do if a soldier didn't surface after he hit the water. The reply was the if he didn't surface he was no good for spetsnaz units.

Undoubtedly much of what he might have known would be kept secret by the west and editorial changes by non experts might change quite a few details to the point where they become questionable.

A lot of the facts he mentions are quite true and were not known in the west a the time. Details of the 9mm silenced makarov, anti aircraft "mines". and many other things.

[NcDeuce]

Ay! Silly, silly Poles.

[perdurabo]

Ay! Silly, silly Poles.

ekhm what do you mean? if it's another "Polish minesweeper" better forget it :]

[Maciek]

Things that undermine his credibility the most:

1. Anyone who is familiar whith the Russian military will tell you that its description and relationships with in it, although true in some places, but overall grossly exaggerated and tailored for better selling in the west.

2. All of the leading Russian historians disagree on most of the numbers that he provides (I'm reffering to WW2)

3. If he was an active resident (spy), when did he have the time to go through all of those secret historical documents and archives? And who would give him such an access?

4. He is a defector who is bitter at his native country and has to make a living somehow. This alone should raise questions about his objectivnes.

And now the facts that completely destroy his credibility (IMHO):

He claims that he is sentenced to death by KGB and nevertheless he openly travels, appears on TV and in movies, makes public appearances during his books presentations and so on. Somehow it is hard to believe that KGB couldn't get off a shot in 25 years...

His book "Spetsnaz" WOW... I don't even want to go into the detailed description of all missinformation and fiction collected in that work of art, I am just going to say one thing: How can a man of his physical built and his eyesight and I'm not talking about his present day pictures, I am talking about his old/younger pictures, be a Spetsnaz member. Ofcourse may be back then Spetsnaz recruited among obesity ****e geek midgets...

1 All Warsaw pact armys are similar
2 "leading" Russian historians are writing what Kreml want
3 On military school he was guarding archives ("Suicide")
4 What abaut other historians

You have all answers in books

He was not a spetsnaz member, he was only a spy
Did you read books or just look at the photos

[Russian Texan]

He was not a spetsnaz member, he was only a spy
I have never made a statement that he was career spetsnaz officer. I was talking about his time with "spetsnaz GRU"

"leading" Russian historians are writing what Kreml want

C'mon get real, you don't even know how ridicilous this statement is today, 12 years ago I'd agree with you but now...

On military school he was guarding archives

So basically he wrote 12 books based on sveral hours a week that he spend at the entrance to the archive

All Warsaw pact armys are similar
In what way? Do you mean command structure, selection process or what? In my post I was referring to the inner workings of the Russian military & society and not the organizational structure but rather social interaction in it.


Suvorov is the typical communist who went over to the "dark side", kind of "Darth Vader of imperialist propaganda" His writings belong to the domain of science fiction- "alternative history" like H. Turtledove's etc.. but they are quite convincing for people who have very little knowledge of history.

Although like I have stated before not all of it is fiction, he does use a lot of real life stuff that was or is still unknown to the general public. For example hand-to-hand combat training with murderers and death row inmates, hazing in the military, some special equipment that he describes, education and training, etc. So he does provide facts, althoug he completely skips those that can be damaging to his theory,it is just the way he interprets them is geared more towards selling rather than establishing historical accuracy. BTW there was a movie made, I think it was in Checoslovakia, based on his book "Aquarium" so if you are still a believer,see it and then we'll talk. BTW2 Look at Russian president V. Putin, he is about the same age and comes from the similar background (intelligence), find any similarities...I don't think so. Well I guess you get my drift

[perdurabo]

[
"leading" Russian historians are writing what Kreml want

C'mon get real, you don't even know how ridicilous this statement is today, 12 years ago I'd agree with you but now...


All Warsaw pact armys are similar
In what way? Do you mean command structure, selection process or what? In my post I was referring to the inner workings of the Russian military & society and not the organizational structure but rather social interaction in it.

LOL Rusians NEVER change! look at Kursk how they treated familys members of crew now under Putin rule they will go further in lies and other ****:]

second well even inner workings of rusian army and other stuff were similiar, Russians tried to make all nations around them to be like them :] but Walesa come up and dystroyed comunism jeee and ****heads from moscow now cry for our carots and ships and are scared if we find other sources of oil.... LOL

[Russian Texan]

You have failed to provide any logical objections or comments to my arguments so I presume that you have none. In your opinion, why would present day Russia hide any information about WW2 when everything, everyone and anything that happened during USSR was denounced, bashed, exposed, blamed in the "free media" (media is never free, it always belongs to someone, if not the gov. then to the guy who signs a paycheck) of todays Russia.
[second well even inner workings of rusian army and other stuff were similiar
Prove.

but Walesa come up and dystroyed comunism

So he is singlehandlently responsible for the change of political systems.... aha
Allow me to remind you that it actually was USSR in the first place to give Poland independence from Czar's Russia but that is besides the point. The simple truth is that if USSR cared, whatever happened in Poland would end up same way as it did Checoslovakia and other places that weren't happy with the communism and Walensa probably be explaining his political views to the bears in Siberia. Does abreviation "ZGV" ( zapadnaya gruppa voisk) tell you anything?

jeee and ****heads from moscow now cry for our carots and ships and are scared if we find other sources of oil....

The statement above hints me that either you or Poland as a whole suffer from the bitternes and a small country/***** inferiority complex... Let me see if I got it right, if it is not for Poland then Russian economy would cease to exist and its population will be sentenced to endure the lack of vitamins and eventualy die from starvation... yeah right man, whatever you say
I'll do you a favor and let you on a terrible secret: somehow I think that if tommorrow Poland disappears from the face of the Earth, 99.9% of russians won't even notice it, just ask any of them on this message board. Just make a post, who will care if the Poland in no longer...

Here is joke that you might want to remember anytime you'd like to get a reality check:

Q:Which is the most independent country in the world?
A: Poland
Q:Why?
A:Nothing depends on it

Take care pal.

[Maciek]

(...)

Here is joke that you might want to remember anytime you'd like to get a reality check:

Q:Which is the most independent country in the world?
A: Poland
Q:Why?
A:Nothing depends on it

Take care pal.

a good one did not know it before

I do not remember the carots

It is truth that they cry for ours ships.
The first person that complain about restructuring the "W.I.Lenin" shipyard was the soviet ambasador
The shipyard was the main supplier of ZSRR with fishing boat and large fishing ships and hydrographic ships.
We were selling them under construction cost.

I see that you dont know that this was on purpose, every comunist country was made to build one kind of think, that make them depend from others comunist countris, but the Kreml forget that them become depend from others to.
The same thing hapened in Ukraine, ther were some important military factorys for ZSRR

[Herrmannek]

You have failed to provide any logical objections or comments to my arguments so I presume that you have none. In your opinion, why would present day Russia hide any information about WW2 when everything, everyone and anything that happened during USSR was denounced, bashed, exposed, blamed in the "free media" (media is never free, it always belongs to someone, if not the gov. then to the guy who signs a paycheck) of todays Russia.

B/c it could cost them money. We have few graveyards in Russia made by NKWD, many pieces of art stolen from Poland, Not payed bills(for carots, potatos, onion, shoes, ships and other stuf ) and such...

but Walesa come up and dystroyed comunism
So he is singlehandlently responsible for the change of political systems.... aha
Allow me to remind you that it actually was USSR in the first place to give Poland independence from Czar's Russia but that is besides the point.

Yes, By sending Budionny to Warsaw to congratulate

The simple truth is that if USSR cared, whatever happened in Poland would end up same way as it did Checoslovakia and other places that weren't happy with the communism and Walensa probably be explaining his political views to the bears in Siberia. Does abreviation "ZGV" ( zapadnaya gruppa voisk) tell you anything?

, USSR was colos on ceramic legs, theye were white from fear that this can happen In USSR, they cared but were afraid that invasion can make bigger **** than was then.

jeee and ****heads from moscow now cry for our carots and ships and are scared if we find other sources of oil....

The statement above hints me that either you or Poland as a whole suffer from the bitternes and a small country/***** inferiority complex... Let me see if I got it right, if it is not for Poland then Russian economy would cease to exist and its population will be sentenced to endure the lack of vitamins and eventualy die from starvation... yeah right man, whatever you say

Don't start ***** size contest, maybe they wouldn't die from starvation, but they would eat grass joke

I'll do you a favor and let you on a terrible secret: somehow I think that if tommorrow Poland disappears from the face of the Earth, 99.9% of russians won't even notice it, just ask any of them on this message board. Just make a post, who will care if the Poland in no longer...

Now yes, no one would see the difference but then, it would be big problem for USSR, with couldn't buy anything from free part of world b/c of lack of US $

[perdurabo]

joke:
Mao calls to Stalin:
-Hey comrades can you send us 1bilion$?
-of coz not a problem
few weeks leater same phonecall
-hey can you send us 1milion tons of coal
-of coz not a problem
another call from Pekin to Moscow
-can you send us 1milion tons of rice?
-no! i understand dollars, i understand coal but where from the poor Gierek(Polish first secretary) gets rice?

other one:
Thankfullnes of Moscow:
We send them ships and in favour they take our coal

[GazB]

"LOL Rusians NEVER change! look at Kursk how they treated familys members of crew now under Putin rule they will go further in lies and other ****:]"

What lies?

"Russians tried to make all nations around them to be like them "

You mean like the US makes the central and south american countries around them? Oops, no, your dictators were no where near as brutal as some of them.

"I have never made a statement that he was career spetsnaz officer. I was talking about his time with "spetsnaz GRU""

He was in the GRU, he just wasn't in Spetsnaz... he was an officer in GRU... ie Soviet military intelligence service.

[Maciek]

"Russians tried to make all nations around them to be like them "

You mean like the US makes the central and south american countries around them? Oops, no, your dictators were no where near as brutal as some of them.

We did not have a dictator but a first secretary , thers is a little difference(very little)
Its not brutality that is important but the way of slaverying people.
The Russians wanted to make all nations around them to be like them fore ther own safety, to be sure that the people wont revolt, when they see people beter live in other country.

[GazB]

"The Russians wanted to make all nations around them to be like them fore ther own safety, to be sure that the people wont revolt, when they see people beter live in other country."

Do you think the US interferes in the countries near it because it wants to help them? An opposition government in central america could be more fascist than mussolini but as long as those they were fighting were called communists the US would jump into bed with them.

[Maciek]

You are right

What are we talking about any way???