For : Army National Guardsmen

[haze99]

Merry Christmas ALL!

In the user submitted photos, I see Oregongrunt posted a selection of images from his time in Iraq, while serving in the 41st Inf Bde (Sep). This unit is a part of the active Army's 7th Inf Div (Light)
Question, upon return to the States, would you wear the 41st I.B or 7th I.D as a combat patch?

[Jedburgh]

I believe only a battalion from the 41st Inf Bde is deployed - augmenting the 39th Inf Bde which is opcon'd to the 1st Cav.

The SSI normally worn is that of the unit to which the soldier is assigned during his tour in the combat zone. With the above, though, it gets complicated. Does he wear the 41st patch? Or, since the battalion is augmenting the 39th should it be that one? Or, since they're all under the operational control of the 1st Cav, should it be the horse blanket? Hell, he could probably get away with wearing any one of the three.

[Hellfish]

The 7th ID is only a divisional headquarters for administrative purposes. It's not deployable AFAIK, and nobody outside of the div HQ wears the 7th ID patch. The Oregon guys are still wearing their 41st Inf Bde patch and that will be their combat patch.

[gaijinsamurai]

I was in the 2/162 Infantry, an element of the 41st Brigade, when they deployed to Kuwait in 2000. We wore the 7th ID patch on our helmets and kept our 41st Brigade "sunset" patch on our shoulders.

[ibstolidude]

I believe only a battalion from the 41st Inf Bde is deployed - augmenting the 39th Inf Bde which is opcon'd to the 1st Cav.

The SSI normally worn is that of the unit to which the soldier is assigned during his tour in the combat zone. With the above, though, it gets complicated. Does he wear the 41st patch? Or, since the battalion is augmenting the 39th should it be that one? Or, since they're all under the operational control of the 1st Cav, should it be the horse blanket? Hell, he could probably get away with wearing any one of the three.

it isn't hard to figure out - the AR is clear and your orders will absolutely dictate the nature of your relationship to your superior units; there is no doubt, to the clear of mind, as to whether they are attached or assigned - it's like asking any higher commander who is TACON v/s OPCON - I guarantee they will have an answer or will be quickly out of the biz.

[Hellfish]

I was in the 2/162 Infantry, an element of the 41st Brigade, when they deployed to Kuwait in 2000. We wore the 7th ID patch on our helmets and kept our 41st Brigade "sunset" patch on our shoulders.

I was in the 35th ID/66th Bde rotation right behind you. Specifically, I was at Ali Al Salem. June-Oct '00.

[gaijinsamurai]

Alright! It was a good time to be there, before the Al-Quaida activity started to restrict or off-base liberty. Were you in the Illinois Guard? I was at the communications post at Mutla Ridge. Our company's other platoons were at Ali Asalim and Al Jaber, respectively.

[gaijinsamurai]

I bet the weather sucked at that time of the year, though! We were lucky (February-June '00).

[Jedburgh]

ib - I did not say that there was any vagueness about the nature of the unit's operational relationship - just that it is a bit more complex than normal. The soldiers are assigned to the battalion, which is then attached to the brigade which is OPCON'd to the division. AR 670-1, in regard to Shoulder Sleeve Insignia - Former Wartime Service, does state that a soldier may wear the SSI of the unit to which attached or the unit that had operational control.

There have been more than a few instances in which soldiers have returned after their year or more in theater meeting authorization requirements to wear two or three different SSIs (We also now have more than a few soldiers authorized to wear the USMC 1st Div patch as their SSI-FWTS). The reg also states that the soldier has the option to choose which SSI-FWTS to wear - or not to wear it at all. Hell, depending upon the nature and timing of your operational tours, you could have a different SSI-FWTS on your uniform for each day of the week, perhaps keeping the right side bare on Sunday.

[gaijinsamurai]

I think what Jedburgh is saying has a lot of merit. I served in the Marine Corps in Desert Shield/Storm, and five years later, joined the Oregon National Guard. At the time, I received so many different answers to the question of whether I could wear a 2nd Marine Division combat patch that I lost count, and finally interest in the issue. I believe the official policy restricts the wearing of USMC divisional patches on Army uniforms (they aren't authorized for wear in the Marine Corpss, either), just as Ranger tabs, etc. aren't allowed on Marine Corps uniforms.
I do have a friend who was an officer in the 41st, and he got away with wearing his 1st Force Recon (USMC) patch on his Army class A's for a while.
When the 41st Brigade came under the 7th ID organizational umbrella, we were going to initially have to discontinue the old "sunset" patch and replace it with the 7th ID patch. However, senior Oregon Guard officers argued successfully to keep the 41st patch, for the sake of tradition. Instead, as I wrote earlier, the decision was made to attach the 7th ID patch on our kevlars.
There was probably a lot of debate and questions as to which patch the Oregon guardsmen would wear upon their return from Iraq, but once a decision was made, I'm sure everybody knew without question what they would be authorized to wear.

[ibstolidude]

I can't believe I am saying this, however AR 670-1 is written in Black on White, not gray, for a reason. Despite multipe SSI-FWTS's, despite them being from multiple commands; there has never been any question as to which was authorized.

NO USMC SSI-FWTS is awarded to US Army soldiers. Period - it is something I am personally familiar with, reference GW1. - see para 28-17.4b - "Authorization. Authorization applies only to members of the Army who were assigned overseas with U.S. Army
organizations during the following periods." You will wear the SSI-FWTS of your appropriate US Army command. No change from being attached to a foreign troop command, another personal experience.

Please see App. F AND AR 670-1, 28-16/17. for furhter detail.

a. There is no time-in-theater requirement to be authorized to wear the SSI–FWTS.
b. A deployed unit that is authorized to wear an SSI in its own right (or an organic component thereof), in
accordance with para 28–16, will wear that unit’s SSI as the SSI–FWTS. This is true regardless of whether the
headquarters element deploys, and regardless of the number of changes to the unit’s alignment or operational control
(OPCON) during the period of deployment.
c. When a unit not entitled to its own SSI deploys, the OPCON relationship prior to deployment is terminated, and a
new OPCON relationship is established. Members of these units will wear the SSI of the lowest echelon deployed unit
entitled to an SSI in each of their new deployed chains of command as their SSI–FWTS.
d. When there is no intermediate unit that has its own SSI in the deployed chain of command, members of units not
entitled to their own SSI will wear the SSI of the senior Army command in the theater as their SSI–FWTS.
e. Soldiers who are cross-leveled, assigned, attached, or augmenting deployed units, and soldiers who are TDY on
orders through the use of DD Form 1610 (Request and Authorization for TDY Travel of DOD Personnel) will wear the
same SSI–FWTS worn by members of the deployed unit(s) to which attached or OPCON. This does not apply to
members of Trial Defense and CIDC, who will wear the SSI of their respective commands as their SSI–FWTS.
f. Soldiers authorized to wear more than one SSI–FWTS may choose which SSI–FWTS they wear. Soldiers also
may elect not to wear the SSI–FWTS.
g. Precedence was established in Vietnam for elements organic to, or an integral part of an organization to wear the
organizational SSI as their SSI–FWTS.

Those same guidelines that govern the wear of the SSI also have applicability to the SSI-FWTS. Perhaps we just see differently, despite peoples confusion, and people doing "what they think is right" or things that are "no big deal"; the letter states how authorization is determined; especially in cases such as the Marine patch. Are most people going to call you on it? likely no - but just as those who are awarded CIB's and CMB's when they no longer hold the respective MOS's as primaries (or authorized MOS's as primary) are wrong; it still happens - but simple occurance doesn't make it correct.

Perhaps we will just choose to disagree; however the AR is my side of this debate.

[Jedburgh]

NO USMC SSI-FWTS is awarded to US Army soldiers. Period.

Well, perhaps you should be less rigid in your thinking.

Soldiers Earn Right to Division's Blue Diamond

That is not the only instance. I have 3 soldiers in my company right now who are authorized to wear - and do wear - the USMC 1st Div patch as their SSI-FWTS.

1st Marine Division SSI-FWTS Approval Memo

[ibstolidude]

Exemptions may be issued - they have been in the past.

That does not change the AR. I stand but what the AR states - the rules are black and white. If they were not, memos of exception would NOT be needed. I am glad these boys get the recognition they have earned, the question is not what they deserve; it is what they are authorized. This is the exception not the norm - CAPOC is a great example, look at the CAPOC sandwiches from other wartimes, they too served with the marines and various non-Army organizations. In time the AR (as it does in the other listed exceptions) will reflect the latest events - it changes little in the debate - the AR makes clear what is authorized and it isn't any patch one wished or "thinkd is okay". If this wasn't the case and memo for these boys wouldn't have been needed. My issue was with the belief that everything is convoluted and that soldiers are authorized multiple SSI-FWTS's for the same period, and pick and choose which to wear. Would I give a **** about what my own wears, to be honest "no"; is it important, "no"; but that doesn't change the facts.

[ibstolidude]

more interestingly has a virgin graduated yet, or is the stone eagle still perched?

**Jedburgh check your PM's. I am sorry (literally.) I totally FUBAR'd your last post by accidently editing it rather than quoting it. **

[Hellfish]

I bet the weather sucked at that time of the year, though! We were lucky (February-June '00).

Yeah. It was hot. Mutla Ridge must have been boring. At least while at Ali we could run border patrols and play tricks on the Brits.