Reply With Quote...funny I thought the ten commandments were things most people would agree on if they suffered from the consequence of somoeone not following them. Cant see many religions that would argue about the killing, stealing or adultery clauses.
Display Of The Ten Commandments Irks Some
ADL Urges U.S. Supreme Court to Reject Government Display of the Ten Commandments as Unconstitutional
New York, NY, December 13, 2004 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today urged the U.S. Supreme Court to reject the government-sponsored display of the Ten Commandments on public property as unconstitutional and a violation of separation of church and state.
Joined by Dr. Philip A. Cunningham, a highly respected theologian and the executive director of the Center for Christian-Jewish Learning at Boston College, the League submitted an amicus curiae brief in two cases dealing with the display of the Ten Commandments on government property.
In the brief, ADL and Dr. Cunningham argue that the Ten Commandments are an inherently religious text that cannot convey a merely secular message.* The brief's discussion of religious sources and scholarship underscores how the Ten Commandments are a vital expression of religious identity and symbolism – albeit one that is far from uniform or free of controversy.
"The notion that there is a one-size-fits-all Ten Commandments at the heart of American law and society is convenient, but not really true," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director.* "There is no way to pick one version of the Ten Commandments, display it and say that this represents American secular tradition.* In doing so, you are not respecting people who are not Jewish or Christian, or who come from other religious traditions."
The Court has agreed to hear cases from Texas and Kentucky dealing with the display of the Ten Commandments.* The Texas case, Van Orden v. Perry, challenges the display of a six-foot-tall monument on the state capitol grounds in Austin.* The Kentucky case, McCreary County v. ACLU, challenges the display of framed copies of the Ten Commandments in public courthouses.
ADL's brief argues that the displays, "either promote one religion's view of the Ten Commandments, ignoring the beliefs of others; or they homogenize the Ten Commandments, thereby giving official sanction to minimizing the divergent yet fundamentally religious beliefs of both Jews and Christians regarding this sacred text."* The brief was*prepared by Jeffrey R. Babbin, Aaron S. Bayer and Kenneth D. Heath of Wiggin and Dana LLP, of New Haven, Connecticut.
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/SupremeCourt_33/4601_33.htm
...funny I thought the ten commandments were things most people would agree on if they suffered from the consequence of somoeone not following them. Cant see many religions that would argue about the killing, stealing or adultery clauses.
Don't you realise that this is a principle question?
I just find funny, this double-standard of judgement (just one more, it's becoming a common practice): the Anti-Defamation League, as a powerful jewish lobby, is obviously for separation of church and state in a country mainly built around Christian values like the USA, but has of course nothing to say about a theocracy like Israel
In fact, the ADF is just another hate-group against the Western civilization. And even in a certain manner a self-hating group as the Ten commandments are from the Old Testament (of course, some jews prefer the Babylonian talmud to the Bible).
And I would really like to know what the so-called "judeo-christians" of the Republican party, always behind Israel and for the Irak war, are saying about a jewish lobby denying Christian values in their own country? I wouldn't say it's a very friendly thank-you for this strong support costing many American lifes and tons of money!
So once more, my question is: when will the euro-americans stand up and shout loud and clear "enough is enough"?
Btw, to be honest, there are jews in the USA who are really friendly to the Christians, like the "Jews for Christmas" for instance:
http://nypress.com/17/51/news&columns/celiafarber.cfm
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...8/145204.shtml
Arghhh! They're getting the whole separation of church and state thing wrong! The point was merely that the state shouldn't interfere in church affairs (which it does btw) and the church shouldn't interfere in state affairs. Most references to God and the Ten Commandments we have now in the Capitol were placed there by the very people who coined the "separation of church and state" thing. That wouldn't make sense if it meant what they're now trying to pretend it means, would it?
edit:
Exactly. They didn't want the State to become the Church (and/or vice versa) as it had become in England.Originally Posted by Federalist
You know, that argument is used time and time again. Its a horrible one.
What's the first commandment? The most important one, in terms of hard core Christians? I find it insulting as ƒuck.
1) 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
The second is just silly...
2) 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
And god damn-it the third is retarded...
3) 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
The fourth one is irrelevant to most...
4) 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
The fifth one is nice but horribly a law to live by. Certainly not something holy.
5) 'Honor your father and your mother.'
Six, seven, eight, and nine are the only ones that are truly shared with other religions and faiths.
6) 'You shall not murder.'
7) 'You shall not commit adultery.'
8) 'You shall not steal.'
9) 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
Where would the commercial and capitalistic world be if we did not want to impress our neighbors with plasma screen TVs and SUVs? The tenth one is down right comical.
10) 'You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's.'
So with that said, the 10 Commandments have absolutely NO place in public schools UNLESS they are part of a comparative religion course, and considering the lack of civic/political education kids are getting these days, the time might be spent educating them on more important things than the difference and histories of religions.
Anybody who argues FOR the 10 Commandments is simply blinded by their own religion and simply cannot understand why those of us that of a different faith, agnostic, or atheist find it insulting that they somehow represent commonsense and values of other people.
Tough. The US founding fathers were very concious of the fact that a lot iof migrants to the US were heading away from religious persecution in Europe. The problem with adopting a link between church and state is which church ? Protestant or Catholic ? Which Protestant chruch ? Lutheran, Anabaptist, Anglican, Moravian etc - the list goes on. The society of the time was pretty religious though and the consensus would have been that following divine law would keep most people out of court. Screw the PC - this is part of American history, put there by the founding fathers with no intent of discrimination. Keep 'em I say, the tree huggers need to be offended to keep 'em regular.
We live in a democracy right? Where the majority rule, yet we have tolerance for the minority. And in American, Christians make up the overwhelming majority. No one is forcing you to believe them, but when three out of four Americans DO believe believe them, you're saying the majority must bow to political correctness to appease the minority?
Something like 82% of the people in the US identify themselves as belonging to one faith or another. 77% are Christians. Athiests and Agnostics make up roughly 13%.
It is not about political correctness. Its about understanding WHAT the United States is.
A nation built from the ashes of a European society that had suffered moral outrages forced upon them by the majority. The horrors of the 30 years war is a great example. The Dutch Calvinist and Puritan plights are perfect examples.
Our founding forefathers, a majority of which were VERY god fearing men that belonged to a Christian church of denomination or another understood the inherent dangers of a society where the PEOPLE via the government forced a religion upon the minority. Even at the time of the Revolutionary War we had a nation filled with well over two or three dozen DIFFERENT large denominations that worshipped and led lives differently.
And, this nation is not a goddamn Democracy. I am not too sure how many times I must explain this in this forum. We have a Democratic Republic. We elect officials to vote FOR us. A true Democracy is crap where mob rules and rights are stepped upon by the masses.
With that said, this nation has a Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights protects EVERYONE not just the majority.
What does that mean? If you want YOUR faith, a private matter I may add, forced upon me? You will do so against the grain of what this society was built upon and you will have to fight every step of the way.
The day YOU force upon me, your faith, a concept I find so disgusting and offensive not just to my personal beliefs but to the concept of what America is, is the day I take up arms against a country that is no longer the nation intended upon by our forefathers.
So take your right-wing christian moral majority bull**** and shove it up your ass.
And to keep it on topic...
God damn-it!
Woops! Just broke another commandment.
Well said, but I see a difference between forcing my beliefs upon you and what we see here- an act by the government in reconition of the beliefs of the majority of the people it represents.It is not about political correctness. Its about understanding WHAT the United States is.
A nation built from the ashes of a European society that had suffered moral outrages forced upon them by the majority. The horrors of the 30 years war is a great example. The Dutch Calvinist and Puritan plights are perfect examples.
Our founding forefathers, a majority of which were VERY god fearing men that belonged to a Christian church of denomination or another understood the inherent dangers of a society where the PEOPLE via the government forced a religion upon the minority. Even at the time of the Revolutionary War we had a nation filled with well over two or three dozen DIFFERENT large denominations that worshipped and led lives differently.
And, this nation is not a goddamn Democracy. I am not too sure how many times I must explain this in this forum. We have a Democratic Republic. We elect officials to vote FOR us. A true Democracy is crap where mob rules and rights are stepped upon by the masses.
With that said, this nation has a Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights protects EVERYONE not just the majority.
What does that mean? If you want YOUR faith, a private matter I may add, forced upon me? You will do so against the grain of what this society was built upon and you will have to fight every step of the way.
The day YOU force upon me, your faith, a concept I find so disgusting and offensive not just to my personal beliefs but to the concept of what America is, is the day I take up arms against a country that is no longer the nation intended upon by our forefathers.
So take your right-wing christian moral majority bull**** and shove it up your ass.
And to keep it on topic...
God damn-it!
Woops! Just broke another commandment.
It would be one thing to force everyone, regardless of creed, to go to a Christian mass on Sunday because 77% of the people are Christian. Or to have you arrested and jailed because you believe giant monkeys from outerspace are Gods. Or how about burning you at the stake because you're Wiccan. We don't take away your right to vote or assemble because you're Jewish or Muslim. THAT, in my mind, is forcing my beliefs upon you which is not what's happening here.
If we post the Ten Commandments in a courtroom or a classroom, we're not saying necessarily that these are the codes of conduct you will be held accountable to in our society. Rather, it's a statement of what the vast majority of people in this country proclaim to believe. We write "In God We Trust" on our money, "On nation, under God" and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier has written on it "Here rest, in Honored Glory, An American Soldier Known but to God." All these are symbols that tell the world and remind us that we are a Christian nation, yet do not persecute others who believe differently.
As for Democracy vs. Representative Democracy, you're right. I just didn't specify clearly what type of democracy we have.
That being said, I think it's a sad day when political correctness is forcing that very representative democracy to NOT represent the people-- in this case their religion. If the Government turns completely secular in a society where four out of five people believe in one of the "big three" religions then it fails to be representative of the people.
Course, that's just my $.02. (which, btw, has "In God We Trust" minted on them
This has nothing to do with political correctness.
Political correctness is is a social thing.
FORCING children, in a public school, to read a SPECIFIC faith's religious laws (that is what they are after all) is not right. It goes against the Bill of Rights.
You want religion in your life, go to church, have prayer groups at home and with those who think like you, and send your child to a religious school.
Being in a majority is NOT being right, remember that. 90% of America could want to put Mexicans in camps and gas them. Does it make it right? Hell no.
I am not telling you to not wear a crucifix to work or school. Or a kipot.
If you have read my posts concerning France's anti-religion laws you would know that I am EXTREMELY tolerant of a person's faith and how he or she presents it to others.
This is not what we are talking about.
We are talking about a group of religious laws. Of which 40% are relevant to the general population and whose first command strikes at the very core of the first Amendment.
The government has no place in putting the 10 Commandments there and has EVERY right to preserve the 1st Amendment by demanding that folks take them down.
If I had my way I would restore all Federal "God" related issues back to the way they were in the old days. Money would have no mention of God, just Liberty. There would be no mention of God in the pledge of allegiance...a left over of the Cold War.
There was one common unifying theme in America in the late 1700s...
LIBERTY.
And as far as I am concerned you trying place religious influence within my life is no better than those anti-gun loons trying to take away my right to own a gun.
You both suck. Live your lives and quit feeling the need to dictate ours.
God, you people have some immunity against logic or something.
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