Turkish Armed Forces - New posters, read first post

[sierraone]

@sierraone,@achilles ----> Well,you look all from your side.you Still stuck in middle-age century reviews....What I say that I will take opposite comments.Coz you are in that way,to be in conditioned.
I repeat again Greeks are our friends.Everybody sees who is talking friendly...and reasonablely.I beg you not to post your Discrimination sentences here.If you try to talk friendly,We always wait you to write,and listen...

WE look it from our side? We have totally refrained from Discrimination or are you playing the race card now? Turks are OUR friends provided you don't use your armed forces to intimidate us because we are not afraid of you that is all we said. Well done for posting the pics but no-one needs all the bull**** that goes with it about your bloody red berets and how Turkey is the most important country in the world.

Post the pics, shut your gob.

[Clearday-TRForce]

@sierraone,@achilles ----> Well,you look all from your side.you Still stuck in middle-age century reviews....What I say that I will take opposite comments.Coz you are in that way,to be in conditioned.
I repeat again Greeks are our friends.Everybody sees who is talking friendly...and reasonablely.I beg you not to post your Discrimination sentences here.If you try to talk friendly,We always wait you to write,and listen...

WE look it from our side? We have totally refrained from Discrimination or are you playing the race card now? Turks are OUR friends provided you don't use your armed forces to intimidate us because we are not afraid of you that is all we said. Well done for posting the pics but no-one needs all the bull**** that goes with it about your bloody red berets and how Turkey is the most important country in the world.

Post the pics, shut your gob.

@sierraone, I have no aim to intimidate you,NEVER EVER...I dont need that.I havent mentioned before that you are afraid of us.WHY DO YOU AFRAID OF US? I dont understand.I do not wanna to scare anyone here.WHY DO YOU TALK LIKE THIS? please I wanna you not to write anymore about Greek-Turkish conflict.COZ I DONT BELIEVE IN THERE S A CONFLICT,COZ I ALWAYS BELIEVE IN WE ARE FRIENDS,WE CAN LIVE TOGETHER.WE CAN BUILT IMPORTANT VALUES TOGETHER...

--->You said: "Post the pics, shut your gob" ...is it a common EU norm to say someone who talks "shut up ur gob"...or you must say that one u are free to talk in EU, cozthe norms of EU allows to talk everything.


thanks.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Here is a free photo forum.And of course I can add photos here...

[Clearday-TRForce]

[sierraone]

@sierraone, I have no aim to intimidate you,NEVER EVER...I dont need that.I havent mentioned before that you are afraid of us.WHY DO YOU AFRAID OF US? I dont understand.I do not wanna to scare anyone here.WHY DO YOU TALK LIKE THIS? please I wanna you not to write anymore about Greek-Turkish conflict.COZ I DONT BELIEVE IN THERE S A CONFLICT,COZ I ALWAYS BELIEVE IN WE ARE FRIENDS,WE CAN LIVE TOGETHER.WE CAN BUILT IMPORTANT VALUES TOGETHER...

thanks.

You started by mentioning Cyprus and the Aegean as a success of your armed forces. And then the ability of your armed forces to fight 7 nations at once. Saying that we state Greek forces are better than the Turkish. When did we do that?

@I havent mentioned before that you are afraid of us.WHY DO YOU AFRAID OF US?

Look mate, your country is in financial trouble and you know that. You are trying to join the EU and the Europeans are very sceptical about it. Democracy in your country is not that stable and the army has still a lot of influence in politics. Talks of assesion are starting in 2015 provided Turkey has shown signs of reform and your red berets can't do anything about that. Reform includes recognising the republic of Cyprus, allowing the return of the refugees to their homes, abandoning any claims to the Aegean and apologising for the 1915 genocide of the Armenians. That is not my words, that is the EUs.

Now you have posted the most massive pics of every pic that has ever been taken of the Turkish armed forces and then a few times over too. They are very good and professional photos although I have to scroll around an area of Kurdistan to get the idea. I enjoy them as I am a military man and have been for 20 years now. We don't need your political views at the same time or how the red berets can fly without wings and shoot laser beams from their eyes. You say they are better than any European country's special forces and I guess that includes Britain and the SAS and SBS right? Keep the lofty claims to yourself and don't try and fool members of this forum.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Again and again...Well it is hard to make a positive conversation with you.So if we are failed to built up an empathy,sympathy...we dont need to continue our conversation...I say we must be friend,you say "Aegean",I say we are friends,you say "Cyprus"...

1- you always try to find worst-points of a nation,it means you look the issues with evil-looking.But I havent said anything about Greek country s

2- I just wanna say Turkish soldiers,SP units are far experienced in battlefield than EU countries,these situations make this country strong in army.I do not wanna insult a nation.Coz I respect Greeks and Greece country.What can I say more?

3-You say we are in a financial crisis. And you wanna see us in these crisis continues...But I dont live with that crisis.It had passed 3 years ago.Now the Turkey is the number one in growing numbers of OECD in the World with its %10. And with registered + unregistered numbers "gross nation income" over 600 billion dollars...these numbers are under Italy,England,Spain,France,Germany,but it is over Greece,Slovania,Bulgaria,Cypriot,Cek Republic,Portugal,Belgium,Austria...etc in the EU.

4-Personally,I do not wanna to join EU.Coz Turkey is an unique country overall.Amazing history,extraordinary natural beauty,natural sources,hard-working,respectful population we have...
And I m in doubt,EU will go to down our wealthy...

5-Dont u think why do UK,GERMANY,ITALY,FRANCE,SPAIN (big 5 in EU) wanna to see us in EU? please what are their opinions? why do they want us in EU? why do you pass this issue?

6-And last,please read below what is the Fatih(Conqueror) Sultan Mehmet (Ottoman Empire Sultan)says,you can find English in that.We are grandchilds of these ancestors.I m very glad to be a grandchild.Coz Turkey combine these values into same way "Democracy-Modern World-Religious-History" in same lands.

7- Think that? if you have a neighbour like IRAN,Syria,Afghanistan, and other extreme religion countries...What do they make to your lands,seas,homes? You would be in b...s..t hell...How dont you understand Turkey is so important with all territory,areas,regions,geopolitics? It s hard to consider for me why dont you see these basic,simple issues,topics,matters...






Turkish Mountain Commando

[Clearday-TRForce]

Well,my Greek friend,I see again little infos in your sentences about Armenia claims...Well let me clarify you to update ur informations...

HISTORICAL EVIDENCE PROVES THERE WAS NO ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

By SAMUEL A. WEEMS

Today, Armenians claim they were victims of an Ottoman genocide committed in 1915. The Armenians blame Turkey even though Turkey didn't become a republic until 8 years after the "fake" Armenian claims. The real historical truth is that there was no Armenian genocide and the following historical facts are absolute proof that the self-claimed Armenian genocide is nothing more than the figment of their rich and vivid imaginations to try to get something for nothing. The Armenians have created a "genocide industry" for one very simple and basic reason--to deceive, fleece and scam the Christian world out of billions of dollars. Examine the actual historical truth:

The word "genocide" was invented and first used to describe the Nazi German attempted extermination of the entire Jewish race during the World War II years starting in the mid 1930s and lasting until 1945. Rafael Lemkin of Poland coined the phrase and invented the world "genocide" in 1944 to describe the Nazis annihilation of specific groups of people by both direct and indirect murder during World War II. The Nazis efforts to destroy the entire Jewish race first began in Germany and thereafter in every country they invaded and conquered. This Nazi planned and carried out terror became known as the Holocaust Genocide. The Nazi horror campaigns against Jews became the basis for creation of an international crime in 1951. The 1915 Armenian fake "massacre" claim of 1915 had nothing to do with the adoption of the 1951 international law as Armenians also falsely claim today.

There is no historical doubt but that the German Nazis carried out a genocide of Jews and they carried out a ten year series of on-going campaigns to murder every Jew they could get their hands on. Adolph Hitler was the evil genius who concocted the theory that the Aryan race was the master race of people and that all non-Aryan races were inferior.

The Armenians claim their ancestors suffered from the first "genocide" of the 20th century even though what they claim took place 29 years before the word "genocide" was even invented. In addition, there is no way to compare the Nazi World War II acts of ten long unending years throughout Europe to one event during World War I in the Ottoman Empire in 1915. What the Armenians complain of today is the fact that the Ottoman government removed disloyal Armenians who were committing many acts of treason from behind the Ottoman army in just one place within their legal country. Let us look at the historical evidence that caused the word "genocide" to be invented and compare the Armenian 1915 experience to what the Nazis did
between 1935-1945 to determine if the Armenian's treason can be called a genocide as compared to the Jewish experiences of World War II.

April 15, 1924: Hitler began writing his book Mein Kampf (My Struggle) while he was in prison for committing treason against Germany. Hitler writes that the Jews must be eliminated from society.

July 18, 1925: The first phase of Mein Kampf is published. Hitler begins his personal public hate campaign against the entire Jewish race. This is Hitler's beginning to destroy the Jews. This 8 year campaign continued throughout Germany until Hitler came to power in 1933. No Ottoman leader wrote such a book condemning the Armenians and there was no long or short campaign to exterminate the entire Armenian race by any Ottoman leader. There is no comparison on this point between the Nazis and Ottomans.

January 30, 1933: Hitler comes to power as the unelected Chancellor of Germany.

February 22, 1933 some 40,00 members of Hitler's private army are appointed auxiliary policemen.

March 21, 1933: Hitler and his Nazis create special courts to persecute political enemies. No such court was ever established within the Ottoman Empire.

April 1, 1933 marks the date Hitler and his Nazis began their "official" persecution of the Jews. This is the date there was a national boycott in Germany of Jewish business and professional people. The Ottomans never did such a thing to the Armenians.

April 26, 1933: Hitler organized the infamous Gestapo, this "above the law" police force would lead in the Jewish extermination campaigns. The Ottomans never had such a special police force to terrorize the Armenians.

May 2, 1933: Hitler dissolved all labor unions. The Ottomans never did such a thing. However, in Armenia today, labor unions like in Nazi Germany are not permitted. Between 50% and 60% of all Armenian businessmen do not pay any taxes. This is why the Armenian number one import is foreign aid from the Christian nations of the world. In Armenia today the privileged few, just as in Nazi Germany, get richer while the working people of this tiny state remain in poverty and are forced to live a life of squalor.

May 10, 1933; The Nazis burnt all books written by Jewish authors in Berlin and throughout Germany. The Ottomans never burned books written by Armenian authors.

September 15, 1935: The Nazi controlled German parliament passed what became known as the "Nuremberg Laws." The Nazis disenfranchised all Jews. The Ottomans never did such a thing to Armenians.

March 12, 1938: Germany invaded Austria. This was the beginning of Nazi conquest of European countries and total extermination of Jews. The Ottomans did not invade other nations during World War I that the Armenians complain about.

October 28, 1938: the first Jews were deported just because they were Jews. The Ottomans never deported anyone because of race. What the Ottomans did was deport Armenians from only one part of their empire for being disloyal citizens who were actively helping the invading Russians. The Jews never helped anyone invade Germany. There is no way anyone can compare the Jews to Armenians!

However, in 1938 when the first Jews were deported, Armenians were voluntarily joining the Nazis to help them create the real genocide of the 20th century. The evidence is absolute that more than 100,000 Armenians joined Hitler. The evidence is also absolute that Armenian politicians took part in Hitler's racial purity campaigns.

November 9, 1938: This is the date that became known as the "Crystal Night" because Nazi mobs throughout Germany attacked Jewish synagogues and stores. The Muslim Ottoman government never attacked "Christian" Armenian churches and stores. There is no way to compare this German action to the Ottomans. Today, in modern day Turkey, there are more Armenian churches operating that in Armenia.

November 12, 1938; German Jews were fined 1 billion marks solely because of their race. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

November 15, 1938: All Jewish students were expelled from all German schools for the sole reason of their race. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

December 3, 1938: Hitler issued a decree for compulsory Aryan ownership of all Jewish enterprises and shops throughout Germany and the occupied countries. The Ottomans never did such a thing--ever!

July 4, 1939; Hitler decreed that German Jews were prohibited from holding government jobs. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

July 21, 1939: Adolph Eichmann was appointed head of the Prague office of Jewish Emigration. The Ottomans never set up such a system in their lands or anywhere else as the Nazis did.

September 1, 1939: Hitler issued a decree that Jews in Germany were forbidden to be outdoors after 8 P.M. in winter and 9 P.M in summer. The Ottomans never did such a thing to the Armenians.

September 23, 1939; German Jews were forbidden to own wireless radios. The Ottomans never did such things to the Armenians

October 6, 1939; Hitler issues a proclamation for the isolation of Jews from the German population. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

October 12, 1939: Jews were removed from Vienna, Austria for the sole reason they were Jews. The reason the Ottomans removed Armenians from eastern Anatolia was because they were disloyal and were helping the invading Russians. The Nazi acts do not compare to the Ottoman actions. For anyone to compare Nazi Germany to the Ottoman Empire is to compare an apple to a fence post.

February 12, 1940: The Nazis deported the first Jews from Germany just because they were Jews. The Ottomans never did such a thing to the Armenians.

August 15, 1940; Adoplh Eichmann presented what became known as the Madagascar Plan for the removal of the entire Jewish race. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

November 15, 1940: The Nazis sealed off the Jewish "ghetto" in Warsaw, Poland.

March 7, 1941: Jews were compelled to provide forced (slave) labor for the Nazis. The Ottomans never did such a thing to the Armenians.

July 31, 1941: The Nazis issued the order to remove all Jews from German occupied territory in Europe. The Ottomans did not attack nor occupy any other nations' land during World War I and there is no way to compare the Nazi action to that taken by the Ottomans against disloyal Armenians. The Nazis were on the offense capturing other people's lands while the Ottomans were defending their empire from the invading Russians who were being helped by Ottoman citizen Armenians.

September 1, 1941: This is the date Nazis decreed that all Jews must wear a yellow star. The Ottomans never required the Armenians to wear the Christian cross as contrasted to the yellow star of David the Germans forced the Jews to wear.

September 17, 1941 marks the date the Nazis began the general deportation of all German Jews. The Ottomans never attempted to deport all Armenians. There is no way to compare the German acts to the Ottomans'.

September 23, 1941: The Nazis began tests for gassing Jews at Auschwitz. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

January 20, 1942: This is the date of the Wannsee Conference where the decision for the "Final Solution" to mass murder the entire Jewish population was made. The Ottomans never had such a conference and there never was an Ottoman "Final Solution" for all Armenians.

March 29, 1942; The Nazis sent the fist train filled with Jews from Paris, France to Auschwitz.

April 20, 1942: The Nazis issued a decree to ban all Jews from using public transportation. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

September 18, 1942: The Nazis reduced food rations of Jews in Germany. The Ottomans never did such a thing to Armenians throughout their empire.

October 4, 1942: All Jews in German concentration camps were ordered to be sent to Auschwitz. The Ottomans did not have concentration camps nor did they use gas chambers to murder Armenians as the Nazis did to the Jews.

December 15, 1942: The Armenian National Council was given official Nazi recognition by Alfred Rosenberg, the German minister of Nazi occupied areas. The Armenians had made a consecrated effort to prove to Hitler that they were Aryans like he was and they were so accepted. The proof is the Armenians were never persecuted in any Nazi occupied lands because they were Armenians.

The Armenians made radio broadcasts from Berlin supporting Hitler's Aryan and racially pure beliefs. Several Armenian newspapers also supported Hitler's ethnic/racial pure beliefs during World War II. The Ottomans never did such things. The actual proof is that during World War II the Turks opposed Hitler while the Armenians within Turkey supported first Hitler and then switched sides to the Russians when they saw Germany losing the war.

February 27, 1943: Jews who were forced to work in the German armaments industry were sent to Auschwitz. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

March 13, 1943: The Nazis opened their first new crematorium at Auschwitz. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

April 14, 1943: The Nazis began transporting Jews from Athens, Greece to Auschwitz. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

April 30, 1945: Approximately 33,000 inmates were freed from Nazi concentration camps by American troops. The United States was never at war with the Ottoman government in 1915 or ever. There were no concentration camps used by the Ottomans.

November 20, 1945: The Nuremberg International Tribunal began to try Nazi leaders for war crimes. There was no such international tribunal who tried the Ottomans for war crimes after World War I. The truth is the British and French did arrest a number of Ottoman citizens after World War I ended. After holding these men in prison for some two years each and every Ottoman citizen was released as the British could find no evidence that they had committed any war crimes.

After World War I the Paris Peace Conference was held. The Armenians presented their massacre claims to this conference who heard them out and considered the evidence presented by the Armenians. The Peace Conference rejected the Armenians massacre claims and gave them nothing for damages. The Armenians refused to accept the Peace Conference "NO" answer and again asked to be heard and to present more evidence. The Paris Peace Conference agreed to allow the Armenians to present their massacre claims a second time and again--for a second time the Paris Peace Conference rejected the Armenians claim against the Ottoman Empire and gave them nothing.

The Armenians have had their day in court not once, but twice, and they offered their self-called proof twice and each time they received nothing. Today the Armenians want land and reparations from Turkey, which didn't even come into existence until 1923--8 years after the self anointed Armenian genocide bogus claim. The Armenian government demands today that the Turkish government admit to this fake genocide claim. The question cries out to be answered: Why should the Turks admit to any such thing? When will the Armenians work for peace in their region of the world rather than starting war after war and making false demands upon its neighbors?

The rest of the story is simply this:

(1) The Armenians have had their false claims of a massacre against the Ottoman Empire heard in a friendly court not once but twice. The Armenians have twice had their day in the proper courts. Each time the friendly court rejected the Armenians own evidence. In plain language the Armenians presented their claims. The losing World War I Ottoman government did not appear to contest the Armenian claims. The truth is the Armenians, not once, but twice lost their uncontested day in court.

(2) Today, the Armenians dare to compare their self-anointed bogus "genocide" claim to what the Nazis did to the Jews during the World War II era. The above listed examples are but a few of the many that are in the history books to contrast and prove (as proof certain) there is no real world way to compare the Nazis to the Ottomans as the Armenians try to do.

(3) The rest of the story, based on actual historical evidence, proves than more than 100,000 Armenians voluntarily joined the Nazis beginning in 1935 to help create an ethnic/racial pure state. Today in Armenia, the Armenian government honors one of its Nazi Armenian generals of World War II fame. There is a youth leadership Institute bearing his name. The question must be asked just what are the Armenians teaching their children in the name of this Nazi who helped exterminate so may Jews?

(4) Armenians produced a weekly radio program in Berlin titled "Armenia. This Armenian radio program supported Hitler's Aryan ethnic/racial pure state. Armenian newspapers also supported Hitler and his Nazis.

(5) Armenian leadership conspired with Hitler's top lieutenants and the end result was that Armenians were labeled by the Nazis as "racially pure." After Hitler and his Nazis lost the war Armenians switched sides and forged a document to falsely claim Hitler said at one time "Who remembers the Armenians?" The truth is that Hitler and his Nazis remembered the Armenians and they were so recognized by him as fellow
Aryans and together they committed a genocide of the Jews.

(6) The Paris Peace Conference, at the time, immediately after World War I heard all the evidence and made decisions about what was right and wrong. Since the Paris Peace Conference at the time rejected Armenian claims--what right does any nation or group now have to reopen this historical period of time to give Armenians damages from a country that wasn't even in existence until 8 years after the false claim was first made? To grant the Armenian "wish" of condemning modern day Turkey of committing a genocide is just not justice in today's world.


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An Armenian and Muslim Tragedy? Yes ! Genocide? No !

By Bruce Fein


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Both Armenians and Muslims in Eastern Anatolia under the Ottoman Empire experienced harrowing casualties and gripping privations during World War I.Hundreds of thousands perished. Most were innocent. All deserve pity and respect. Their known and unknown graves testify to President John F. Kennedy's lament that "Life is unfair." An Armenian tombstone is worth a Muslim tombstone, and vice versa. No race, religious, or ethnic group stands above or below another in the cathedral of humanity. To paraphrase Shakespeare in "The Merchant of Venice," Hath not everyone eyes? hath not everyone hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer...If you prick anyone, does he not bleed? if you tickle him, does he not laugh? if you poison him, does he not die?These sentiments must be emphasized before entering into the longstanding dispute over allegations of Armenian genocide at the hands of the Ottoman Turks during World War I and its aftermath. Genocide is a word bristling with passion and moral depravity. It typically evokes images of Jews dying like cattle in Nazi cyanide chambers in Auschwitz, Bergen-Belson, Dacau, and other extermination camps. It is customarily confined in national laws and international covenants to the mass killing or repression of a racial, religious, or ethnic group with the intent of partial or total extermination. Thus, to accuse Turks of Armenian genocide is grave business, and should thus be appraised with scrupulous care for historical accuracy. To do less would not only be unjust to the accused, but to vitiate the arresting meaning that genocide should enjoy in the tale of unspeakable human horrors.It cannot be repeated enough that to discredit the Armenian genocide allegation is not to deny that Armenian deaths and suffering during the war should evoke tears in all but the stone-hearted. The same is true for the even greater number of contemporaneous Turkish deaths and privations. No effort should be spared to avoid transforming an impartial inquest into the genocide allegations to poisonous recriminations over whether Armenians or Turks as a group were more or less culpable or victimized. Healing and reconciliation is made of more magnanimous and compassionate stuff.

In sum, disprove Armenian genocide is not to belittle the atrocities and brutalities that World War I inflicted on the Armenian people of Eastern Anatolia.I. Sympathy for All, Malice Towards None "War is hell," lamented steely Union General William Tecumseh Sherman during the American Civil War. The frightful carnage of World War I confirmed and fortified that vivid definition.The deep pain that wrenches any group victimized by massacres and unforgiving privation in wartime, however, frequently distorts or imbalances recollections. That phenomenon found epigrammatic expression in United States Senator Hiram Johnson's World War I quip that truth is the first casualty of war. It is customary among nations at war to manipulate the reporting of events to blacken the enemy and to valorize their own and allied forces. In other words, World War I was no exception, about which more anon.

II. The Armenian Genocide Accusation

The Ottoman Turks are accused of planning and executing a scheme to exterminate its Armenian population in Eastern Anatolia beginning on or about April 24, 1915 by relocating them hundreds of miles to the Southwest and away from the Russian war front and massacring those who resisted. The mass relocation (often mischaracterized as "deportation") exposed the Armenians to mass killings by marauding Kurds and other Muslims and deaths from malnutrition, starvation, and disease. After World War I concluded, the Ottoman Turks are said to have continued their Armenian genocide during the Turkish War of Independence concluded in 1922.The number of alleged Armenian casualties began at approximately 600,000, but soon inflated to 2 million. The entire pre-war Armenian population in Eastern Anatolia is best estimated at 1.3 to 1.5 million.

A. Was there an intent to exterminate Ottoman Armenians in whole or in part?

The evidence seems exceptionally thin. The Government's relocation decree was a wartime measure inspired by national self-preservation, neither aimed at Armenians generally (those outside sensitive war territory were left undisturbed) nor with the goal of death by relocation hardships and hazards. The Ottoman government issued unambiguous orders to protect and feed Armenians during their relocation ordeal, but were unable because of war emergencies on three fronts and war shortages affecting the entire population to insure their proper execution. The key decree provided:

"When those of Armenians resident in the aforementioned towns and villages who have to be moved are transferred to their places of settlement and are on the road, their comfort must be assured and their lives and property protected; after their arrival their food should be paid for out of Refugees' Appropriations until they are definitively settled in their new homes. Property and land should be distributed to them in accordance with their previous financial situation as well as current needs; and for those among them needing further help, the government should build houses, provide cultivators and artisans with seed, tools, and equipment."

"This order is entirely intended against the extension of the Armenian Revolutionary Committees; therefore do not execute it in such a manner that might cause the mutual massacre of Muslims and Armenians."(Do you believe that anything comparable has been issued by Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to his troops in Kosovo?)The Ottoman government prosecuted more than one thousand soldiers and civilians for disobedience. Further, approximately 200,000 Ottoman Armenians who were relocated to Syria lived without menace through the remainder of the war.Relocation of populations suspected of disloyalty was a customary war measure both at the time of World War I and through at least World War II. Czarist Russia had employed it against Crimean Tatars and other ethnic Turks even in peacetime and without evidence of treasonous plotting. The United States relocated 120,000 citizens and resident aliens of Japanese ancestry during the Second World War despite the glaring absence of sabotage or anti-patriotic sentiments or designs. Indeed, the Congress of the United States acknowledged the injustice in the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 which awarded the victims or their survivors $20,000 each.

In sum, the mass wartime relocation of Ottoman Armenians from the Eastern front was no pretext for genocide. That conclusion is fortified by the mountains of evidence showing that an alarming percentage of Armenians were treasonous and allied with the Triple Entente, especially Russia. Tens of thousands defected from the Ottoman army or evaded conscription to serve with Russia. Countless more remained in Eastern Anatolia to conduct sabotage behind Ottoman lines and to massacre Turks, including civilians. Their leaders openly called for revolt, and boasted at post-World War I peace conferences that Ottoman Armenians had fought shoulder-to-shoulder with the victorious powers. Exemplary was a proclamation issued by an Armenian representative in the Ottoman parliament for Van, Papazyan. He trumpeted: "The volunteer Armenian regiments in the Caucasus should prepare themselves for battle, serve as advance units for the Russian armies to help them capture the key positions in the districts where the Armenians live, and advance into Anatolia, joining the Armenian units already there."

The Big Five victors -Great Britain, France, the United States, Italy, and Japan acknowledged the enormous wartime service of Ottoman Armenians, and Armenia was recognized as a victor nation at the Paris Peace Conference and sister conclaves charring the post-war map. Armenians were rewarded for their treason against the Ottoman Empire in the short-lived Treaty of Sevres of 1920 (soon superceded by the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne). It created an independent Armenian state carved from large swaths of Ottoman territory although they were a distinct population minority and had always been so throughout the centuries of Ottoman rule. The Treaty thus turned President Woodrow Wilson's self-determination gospel in his Fourteen Points on its head.The Ottoman government thus had overwhelming evidence to suspect the loyalty of its Armenian population. And its relocation orders responded to a dire, not a contrived, war emergency. It was fighting on three fronts. The capital, Istanbul, was threatened by the Gallipoli campaign. Russia was occupying portions of Eastern Anatolia, encouraging Armenian defections, and aiding Armenian sabotage. In sum, the mass relocation of Armenians was clearly an imperative war measure; it did not pivot on imaginary dangers contrived by Ottoman rulers to exterminate Armenians

The genocide allegation is further discredited by Great Britain's unavailing attempt to prove Ottoman officials of war crimes. It occupied Ottoman territory, including Istanbul, under the 1918 Mudros Armistice. Under section 230 of the Treaty of Sevres, Ottoman officials were subject to prosecution for war crimes like genocide. Great Britain had access to Ottoman archives, but found no evidence of Armenian genocide. Scores of Ottoman Turks were detained on Malta, nonetheless, under suspicion of complicity in Armenian massacres or worse. But all were released in 1922 for want of evidence. The British spent endless months searching hither and yon for evidence of international criminality- even enlisting the assistance of the United State yet came up with nothing that could withstand the test of truth. Rumor, hearsay, and polemics from anti-Turk sources was the most that could be assembled, none of which would be admissible in any fair-minded enterprise to discover facts and to assign legal responsibility.

None of this is to deny that approximately 600,000 Ottoman Armenians perished during World War I and its aftermath. But Muslims died in even greater numbers (approximately 2.5 million in Eastern Anatolia) from Armenian and Russian massacres and wartime privations as severe as that experienced by relocated Armenians. When Armenians held the opportunity, they massacred Turks without mercy, as in Van, Erzurum, and Adana. The war ignited a cycle of violence between both groups, one fighting for revolutionary objectives and the other to retain their homeland intact. Both were spurred to implacability by the gruesome experience that the loser could expect no clemency.

The horrifying scale of the violence and retaliatory violence, however, were acts of private individuals or official wrongdoers. The Ottoman government discouraged and punished the crimes within the limits of its shrinking capacity. Fighting for its life on three fronts, it devoted the lion's share of its resources and manpower to staving off death, not to local law enforcement.The emptiness of the Armenian genocide case is further demonstrated by the resort of proponents to reliance on incontestable falsehoods or forged documents. The Talat Pasha fabrications are emblematic.According to Armenians, he sent telegrams expounding an Ottoman policy to massacre its Armenian population that were discovered by British forces commanded by General Allenby when they captured Aleppo in 1918. Samples were published in Paris in 1920 by an Armenian author, Aram Andonian. They were also introduced at the Berlin trial of the assassin of Talat Pasha, and then accepted as authentic.The British Foreign Office then conducted an official investigation that showed that the telegrams had not been discovered by the army but had been produced by an Armenian group based in Paris. A meticulous examination of the documents revealed glaring discrepancies with the customary form, script, and phraseology of Ottoman administrative decrees, and ****ounced as bogus as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the Donation of Constantine.

Ditto for a quote attributed to Adolph Hitler calculated to liken the Armenians in World War I to the Holocaust victims and to arouse anger towards the Republic of Turkey. Purportedly delivered on August 22, 1939, while the Nazi invasion of Poland impended, Hitler allegedly declared: "Thus for the time being I have sent to the East only my Death Head units, with the order to kill without mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians."Armenian genocide exponents point to the statement as evidence that it served as the model for Hitler's sister plan to exterminate Poles, Jews, and others. Twenty-two Members of Congress on or about April 24, 1984 in the Congressional Record enlisted Hitler's hideous reference to Armenian extermination as justification for supporting Armenian Martyrs' Day remembrances. As Princeton Professor Heath W. Lowry elaborates in a booklet, "The U.S. Congress and Adolph Hitler on the Armenians," it seems virtually certain that the statement was never made. The Nuremburg tribunal refused to accept it as evidence because of flimsy proof of authenticity.

The gospel for many Armenian genocide enthusiasts is Ambassador Henry Morgenthau's 1918 book, Ambassador's Morgenthau's Story. It brims with assertions that incriminate the Ottoman Turks in genocide. Professor Lowry, however, convincingly demonstrates in his monograph, "The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau's Story," that his book is more propaganda, invention, exaggeration, and hyperbole than a reliable portrait of motivations and events.According to some Armenian circles, celebrated founder of the Republic of Turkey, Atatürk, confessed "Ottoman state responsibility for the Armenian genocide." That attribution is flatly false, as proven in an extended essay, "A 'Statement' Wrongly Attributed to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk," by Türkkaya Ataöv.

Why would Armenian genocide theorists repeatedly uncurtain demonstrative falsehoods as evidence if the truth would prove their case? Does proof of the Holocaust rest on such imaginary inventiveness? A long array of individuals have been found guilty of participation in Hitler's genocide in courts of law hedged by rules to insure the reliability of verdicts. Adolph Eichmann's trial and conviction in an Israeli court and the Nuremburg trials before an international body of jurists are illustrative. Not a single Ottoman Turk, in contrast, has every been found guilty of Armenian genocide or its equivalent in a genuine court of law, although the victorious powers in World War I enjoyed both the incentive and opportunity to do so if incriminating evidence existed.

The United Nations Economic and Social Council Sub-Commission on the Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities examined the truthfulness of an Armenian genocide charge leveled by Special *******eur, Mr. Benjamin Whitaker, in his submission, "Study of Genocide," during its thirty-eighth session at the U.N. Office in Geneva from August 5-30, 1985. The Sub-Commission after meticulous debate refused to endorse the indictment for lack of convincing evidence, as amplified by attendee and Professor Dr. Ataöv of Ankara University in his publication, "WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IN GENEVA: The Truth About the 'Whitaker Report'."B. If the evidence is so demonstratively faulty, what explains a widespread credence given to the Armenian genocide allegation in the United States?As Napoleon once derisively observed, history is a fable mutually agreed upon. It is not Euclidean geometry. Some bias invariably is smuggled in by the most objective historians; others view history as a manipulable weapon either to fight an adversary, or to gain a political, economic, or sister material advantage, or to satisfy a psychological or emotional need.History most resembles truth when competing versions of events do battle in the marketplace of ideas with equally talented contestants and before an impartial audience with no personal or vested interest in the outcome. That is why the adversarial system of justice in the United States is the hallmark of its legal system and a beacon to the world.

The Armenian genocide allegation for long decades was earmarked by an absence of both historical rigor and scrupulous regard for reliable evidence and truth. The Ottoman Empire generally received bad reviews in the West for centuries, in part because of its predominant Muslim creed and military conquests in Europe. It was a declared enemy of Britain, France, and Russia during World War I, and a de facto enemy of the United States. Thus, when the Armenian genocide allegation initially surfaced, the West was predisposed towards acceptance that would reinforce their stereotypical and pejorative view of Turks that had been inculcated for centuries. The reliability of obviously biased sources was generally ignored. Further, the Republic of Turkey created in 1923 was not anxious to defend its Ottoman predecessor which it had opposed for humiliating capitulations to World War I victors and its palsied government. Atatürk was seeking a new, secular, and democratic dispensation and distance from the Ottoman legacy.Armenians in the United States were also more vocal, politically active and sophisticated, numerous, and wealthy than Turks. The Armenian lobby has skillfully and forcefully marketed the Armenian genocide allegation in the corridors of power, in the media, and in public school curricula. They had been relatively unchallenged until some opposing giants in the field of Turkish studies appeared on the scene to discredit and deflate the charge by fastidious research and a richer understanding of the circumstances of frightful Armenian World War I casualties. Professor of History at the University of Louisville, Justin McCarthy, and Princeton Professor Heath Lowry stand at the top of the list. Professor McCarthy's 1995 book, Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922, is a landmark. Turkish Americans have also organized to present facts and views about the Armenian genocide allegation and other issues central to United States-Turkish relations. But the intellectual playing field remains sharply tilted in favor of the Armenians. Since public officials with no foreign policy responsibilities confront no electoral or other penalty for echoing the Armenian story, they generally acquiesce to gain or to solidify their standing among them.The consequence has been not only bad and biased history unbecoming an evenhanded search for truth, but a gratuitous irritant in the relations between Turkey and the United States. The former was a steadfast ally throughout the Cold War, and Turkey remains a cornerstone of NATO and Middle East peace. It is also a strong barrier against religious fundamentalism, and an unflagging partner in fighting international terrorism and drug trafficking. Turkey is also geostrategically indispensable to exporting oil and gas from Central Asia to the West through pipelines without reliance on the Russian Federation, Iran, Afghanistan or other dicey economic partners.

Finally, endorsing the false Armenian genocide indictment may embolden Armenian terrorist organizations (for example, the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia) to kill and mutilate Turks, as they did a few decades ago in assassinating scores of Turkish diplomats and bombing buildings both in the United States and elsewhere. They have been relatively dormant in recent years, but to risk a resurgence from intoxication with a fortified Armenian genocide brew would be reckless.

III. Conclusion
The Armenian genocide accusation fails for want of proof. It attempts to paint the deaths and privations of World War I in prime colors, when the authentic article is chiaroscuro. Both Muslims and Armenians suffered horribly and neither displayed a morality superior to the other. Continuing to hurl the incendiary charge of genocide on the Turkish doorstep obstructs the quest for amity between Armenia and the Republic of Turkey and warmer relations between Armenians and Turks generally.

Isn't it time to let the genocide allegation fade away and to join hands in commemorating the losses of both communities during World War I and its aftermath?

Bruce Fein is an attorney and Adjunct Scholar of ATAA. © Copied with the permission of ATAA (Assembly of Turkish American Associations)




Greek friend,talk with information,or do not dilute water with ur ignorance.

also look at these sites for real truth,not lies....


1-http://www.armenianreality.com/
2-http://www.armenianreality.com/armenian_terror/armenian_terrorism.html
3-http://www.karabakh.org/
4-http://www.eraren.org/eng/eren.html
5-http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/index.html
6-http://www.tetedeturc.com/home/
7-http://www.ataa.org/ --- http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/ref.html ---http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/arm_list.html


regards,
Clearday-TRForce (Turkish Mountain Commando)

[sierraone]

Not my claims Clearday..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4092933.stm

http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/041214154125.ai980xzg

anyway I am bored now..just post more pics and drink some raki, it will calm you down.

http://www.anatolia.com/anatolia/Foo...ki/Default.asp

[sp2c]

you teach your commando's how to fly aircraft and tanks and beyond that they are supposed to be the best commando's in Europe?

I'm sorry but I don't buy it, these are 3 fulltime jobs that do not have any common grounds between them pressed into 1 trainingprogram.

Imo the Turkish military is well on it's way to becoming one of the best armies in Europe but it isn't there by a long shot. Your tanks are outdated (the M60 should be in a museum), your attack aircraft are either outdated or need upgrading (but Turkey is in the Joint Strike Fighter programme right?) and so on and so on.
for now it's just the largest military in Europe and I doubt you'll stand much of a chance against greece, maybe in 10 years or so

[Clearday-TRForce]

you teach your commando's how to fly aircraft and tanks and beyond that they are supposed to be the best commando's in Europe?
I'm sorry but I don't buy it, these are 3 fulltime jobs that do not have any common grounds between them pressed into 1 trainingprogram.
Imo the Turkish military is well on it's way to becoming one of the best armies in Europe but it isn't there by a long shot. Your tanks are outdated (the M60 should be in a museum), your attack aircraft are either outdated or need upgrading (but Turkey is in the Joint Strike Fighter programme right?) and so on and so on.
for now it's just the largest military in Europe and I doubt you'll stand much of a chance against greece, maybe in 10 years or so

--->well,anyway I dont sell it to you...
--->Tanks issues...
--->Yes,Turkey is in JSF programme.
--->Before talking you must check out Turkish Defence Industries
--->do u say a M60 word? ok, look at this site
http://www.tanksim.com/topic7.htm
--->Would u like more to look for little info? ok click here please
http://www.caat.org.uk/information/p...urkey-0303.php

I wait you here to talk with u...(with more info that u have...)
Would you like to look domestic techs for TURKEY?

1- www.tai.com.tr
2- www.tusas.com.tr
3- www.aselsan.com.tr
4- www.havelsan.com.tr
5- www.yonca-onuk.com --->http://www.yonca-onuk.com/mrtp_33.htm
6- http://www.roketsan.com.tr
7- www.fnss.com
8- http://www.stm.com.tr/eng/default.asp
9- http://www.ayesas.com/en/index.php
10- http://www.seleniacomms.com.tr/index.htm
11- http://www.sarsilmaz.com/main.htm
12- http://www.savronik.com.tr/default_eng.htm
13- http://www.transvaro.com.tr/html/index_eng.html
14- http://www.alp.com.tr/templates/manu...pabilities.htm




Turkish MRTP33



thanks.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Ankara/Güvercinlik is this AH-1 "Whiskey" coded 10608 - Attack Helicopter Battalion - Turkey

52 TAI/CASA CN-235M-100 are delivered to the TuAF. Most of them are locally produced at the TAI facilities in Akinci, north of Ankara and they are operating is various roles from several different locations

C-130E of "triple 2" Filo based at Kayseri/Erkilet

The Tiger squadron of Balikesir, 192 Filo


The T-37s of 122 Temel Filo (training)

Turkish Stars

[sp2c]

--->well,anyway I dont sell it to you...

it's not possible to give somebody pilot, tank and commando training and still maintain the highest standard in Europe.
As said these are full time jobs that do not have any common grounds whatsoever.

--->Tanks issue...Well Turkey has started a tank programme.Turkish Made...

as said, Turkey is getting there but it's not there yet

--->Yes,Turkey is in JSF programme.

--->Before talking you must check out Turkish Defence Industries...after

I never said you're industry is bad or anything, it's just a couple of leagues behind at this point

--->do u say a M60 word? ok, look at this site http://www.tanksim.com/topic7.htm

I'll say it again ... the M60 belongs in a museum, not on any modern battlefield

--->Would u like more to look for little info? ok click here please
http://www.caat.org.uk/information/p...urkey-0303.php

I wait you here to talk with u...(with more info that u have...)

Would you like to look domestic techs for TURKEY?

1- www.tai.com.tr
2- www.tusas.com.tr
3- www.aselsan.com.tr
4- www.havelsan.com.tr
5- www.yonca-onuk.com --->http://www.yonca-onuk.com/mrtp_33.htm
6- http://www.roketsan.com.tr
7- www.fnss.com
8- http://www.stm.com.tr/eng/default.asp
9- http://www.ayesas.com/en/index.php
10- http://www.seleniacomms.com.tr/index.htm
11- http://www.sarsilmaz.com/main.htm
12- http://www.savronik.com.tr/default_eng.htm
13- http://www.transvaro.com.tr/html/index_eng.html
14- http://www.alp.com.tr/templates/manu...pabilities.htm

this is all very interesting and all but completely irrelevant since it doesn't really dispute anything I've said.

it's all very impressive but then again so is the rest of Europe, you should get new stuff in stead of upgrade old stuff

Turkish MRTP33

wow ... it's a patrol boat

isnt it enough? please then look at this site please...
http://www.scramble.nl/tr.htm

exactly what am I supposed to be looking at?

your F16's need upgrading and those F4 Phantoms should be standing right next to the M60 Pattons in the museum

thanks.

no problem

[sp2c]

anyways ... more Turkish soldiers

[Clearday-TRForce]

@sp2c,

* these trainings are simple in tank,pilot...not in expert level.Of course nobody can be an expert in all steps.Their expert area is land and undersea and of course on air (parachute)

* you have well done job "quote /quote",but I advise you to look at a little bit our "defence tech industries" instead of that job...

*Thanks but we have already posted these photos in previous sites.


Turkish MRTP®33 Fast Patrol / Attack Craft

The advanced composite ONUK MRTP®33 Fast Patrol / Attack Craft is the extended and improved version of the 90 tonne ONUK MRTP®29 ("KAAN 29” Class) of the Turkish Coast Guard. ONUK MRTP®33 is developed as a versatile multi role platform for the increasingly tough requirements of the naval and law enforcement forces to control the littoral and the coastal waters.
Internally, the advanced machinery systems and arrangement result in a vessel with greatly enhanced operability, maintainability and accommodation standards.

PRIMARY ROLES
Mastery of the littoral can not be presumed. It does not derive directly from command of the high seas. It is an objective which requires our focused skills and resources. ONUK MRTP®33 "Fast Patrol / Attack Craft” has been designed for this purpose, capable of carrying out a wide range of littoral and coastal water law enforcement-naval duties and open sea rescue, including:
Patrol / Escort / Fast attack
Search and rescue
Anti smuggling
Pollution control
Anti terrorist protection of the coastal and offshore installations
Surveillance / Covert surveillance
Seal insertion-extraction

BACKGROUND:
As of January 2004, 9 units of the "KAAN 29" Class boats (31,70m, 45+ knots) under DNV classification (HSLC Patrol R2) are operational. Boat number 10 of 90 tonne was constructed as the first ONUK MRTP®33 (35,60m, 120 tonne, 47+ knots) as continuation of the project others are under construction at the shipyard.

The new member of the MRTP® (Multi Role Tactical Platform) family of boats, a concept created and developed by Kaan N.Z. Onuk; has improved sea keeping, highly stealthy characteristics, and is able to carry larger mission equipment/payload such as combined 30mm gun and short range SSM stabilized launcher, surface-to-surface medium range F&F fiber guided missiles, EO fire control systems and decoys.

PERFORMANCE:
Speed and seakeeping:
The ONUK MRTP®33 has been developed for a tough professional use with excellent performance qualities at both low and high speeds and strong emphasis on seakeeping. The ONUK OE-01 deep V hull, depending on engine selection and boat configuration, will enable the boat to reach speeds up to 60 knots in calm waters and up to 40 knots in Sea State 4. ONUK MRTP®33 has a soft and dry ride in adverse conditions, offering, thus, an outstanding platform for the various tasks in the brown waters and the open sea.

The MJP water jet drive system provides extreme maneuverability with high precision control and a very shallow draught, enhancing the operation in confined waters or intercepting/boarding larger ships in rough seas.


Stability: Intact-Damaged:
Commercial and Turkish / NATO naval standards have been applied to the ONUK MRTP®33 for the intact and damaged stability. ONUK MRTP®33 meets the DNV standards as well as Turkish Navy and NATO criteria for damaged stability and will remain afloat and upright with flooding in any single main compartment.

CONSTRUCTION AND COMPONENTS:
ONUK MRTP®33 is built in advanced composites to satisfy the very tough requirements of an intensive professional use together with a long service life. The benefits of the advanced composite structure are:

WEIGHT REDUCTION
* Improved Performance
* Increased Payload
* Fuel Savings

CORROSION RESISTANCE
*Longer service life
* Maintenance savings

IMPROVED
* Threat avoidance/detection
* Ballistic protection

REDUCED SIGNATURES
* Machinery vibration/acoustic
* Magnetic signature
* Heat signature

The hull and superstructure are constructed to Det Norske Veritas (DNV) HSLC Patrol R2 classification. All boats of the series are delivered with the relevant DNV Certificates.

The helm station and the interiors have been designed in line with the SAE recommendations for ergonomics to provide the crew with maximum comfort and minimum fatigue in prolonged use in heavy seas.



Machinery and propulsion
The CODAG high-speed propulsion system consists of two MTU 16V2000M90 diesels and a Honeywell TF50 gas turbine; all driving through MJP water jets. The diesels will allow 28 knots patrol speed, while the gas turbine will enable the boat to reach it's maximum speed. CODOG and all diesel propulsion systems are available on request. Depending on the mission and speed requirements, the ONUK MRTP®33 can be equipped with different components for optimum operational efficiency/price ratio.

The mechanical components are selected with the intensive professional use in mind. They offer a high level of reliability, despite the extreme performance requirements.

MISSION MODULES
ONUK MRTP®33 can be equipped with various mission modules depending on the customer requirements. Despite the size of the platform, these modules have been integrated with the modularity and reconfigurability objectives in mind. Thus, the platform can be reconfigured with different mission modules, increasing dramatically the operational flexibility and reducing the costs. The mission modules would be:
Multi weapon mounts.
- Stabilized naval turret with up to 30 mm. gun
(+ short range SSM).
- Medium range SSM (Total weights up to 5 tons).
- Short range SAM.
- 2 x 12.7 mm. heavy MG.
Multi sensor surveillance unit
(EOD with capabilty of controlling the main gun).
Search and rescue equipment
Decoys
SOF (Special Operation Forces) support/SDV (Seal Delivery Vehicle)
Pollution control



thanks.

[Clearday-TRForce]

@sp2c,

maybe, we will get take leopard 2a6 but I dont sure it is enough or not for Modern Turkish Army...As you know,making an own tank is a so long period.But As I heard it will be,there s a decleration in national firms to built up own tank.

We still produce KMS systems...

ATILGAN - Pedestal Mounted Stinger System



SABRA

M48A5T2

Leopard 2A5 - While for Leopard2A5 Tank-2000 project testing in Turkey




Turkish made ATILGAN - Pedestal Mounted Stinger System


System General Features;

4 or 8 ready-to-fire Stinger missiles,

12.7 mm. automatic Machine Gun for self defence and missile dead zone coverage,

Passive surveillance, acquisition and tracking sensors, incorporating thermal and daylight TV cameras,

Multi-pulse Laser Range Finder for target ranging,

Two-axes, gyrostabilised turret providing target surveillance, detection, tracking and shoot-on-the-move capabilities,

Fire control computer providing fully automated system functions such as:

Turret slewing to the target coordinates assigned by C3I System,

Automatic target tracking

Target type recognition,

" Target in Range" warning if the target is within the missile firing range,

Automatic super elevation and lead angles insertion.

IFF system providing interrogation for friend or foe,

Detechable System Control Unit which can be controlled either from inside of the vehicle or 50 meters away from the vehicle,