Arabs at War

[K-9s BEST]

Dear Coop, ... the actual truth about Operation Nickle Grass and the myth of how it "saved" Israel. This comes from the GAO (General Accounting Office) in its assessment of Airlift Capabilities and Their Results.
1) The first request from Israel was on Oct. 7 (refused)
2) The second request came on Oct. 8 from the Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. (also refused)
3) On Oct. 12 tacit approval for air-to-air missiles to be shipped via El Al from USAF Bases in U.S.A. was granted. 2 flights were made before El Al stopped due to impracticality of this effort.
4) Nixon receives intel from ASA that USSR has initiated resupply of Syrian SAMs and agrees with Kissinger to allow the USAF C-141s & C-5s to carry arms to Lod Airport. Nixons` order to Defense Dept. is dated Oct. 13, and is publicly reported in NYT on Oct. 15.
5) It took 9 hours to load the first flight. (100 tons of 105mm howitzer shells) leaving from Dover AFB and was delayed another 4-6 hours due to bad weather and political ****ering over landing rights. In the end, all flights had to refuel in the Azores.
6) The USAF supplied only 32 ALCE (airlift control element) personnel to Lod. (12 cargo handlers-20 communications) Israeli schoolchildren helped in the unloading.
7) 4 M-60 tanks were delivered between Oct 18-22. 25 more arrived after the ceasefire took effect. (!)
8) Only 39% of the total material supplied arrived BEFORE the ceasefire.
9) Israel expressed its gratitude to the U.S. ...the GAO concludes its report stating..."in our opinion, the small quantities of armor delivered had NO effect on the war".

[K-9s BEST]

Re: 1973. The Israelis realized that the Syrian threat took precedence over pushing the Egyptians back over the canal and reacted as such. By Oct 9, the Syrians had in effect lost all gains other than Mt. Hermon.
On the Southern Front, had Gen. Shmuel Gonen not made his armored attack before waiting for infantry support, things would have looked better. Sharon who had planned for a canal crossing for several years, (he was against the Bar-Lev Line from the onset) was SUPPOSED to only secure the crossing site and allow a fresh tank division to roll thru his.
Ego and the delay of getting the bridging equipment to the canal caused the bulk of the casualities.
Sidenotes: of the 17 bunkers that made up the Bar-Lev Line, 4 were unoccuppied on Oct. 6. Of the 290 Israeli tanks that were SUPPOSED to be in the Sinai, less than 100 actually were anywhere near the canal. They had to contend with a crossing force of 5 infantry divisions, 1700 tanks.

[Mr. Nielsen]

On the Southern Front, had Gen. Shmuel Gonen not made his armored attack before waiting for infantry support, things would have looked better.

If and if...

had the egyptians not rushed out for the passes with their armour to relief
the pressure on the syrians, then things would also have looked better for them.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Sorry, I never read it, so can't comment about that book.

Ok.

[Coop]

Dear Coop, ... the actual truth about Operation Nickle Grass and the myth of how it "saved" Israel....

Feel free to correct me, but I don't remember to have ever said anything of this kind - on this forum or anywhere else.

I did, however, say to Alex, that the USAFE had no problems to fly its F-4Es to Israel because of - as he explained - certain European countries closing their airspace for these (on the other side: even if anybody did something of this kind, it was their full right to do so).

And, I think it should definitely be remarked, that these 43 F-4Es delivered to Israel were much more important than four M-60s. Also, if the deliveries you mentioned were as "unimportant" and "late" as you imply, then why have the USA sent all the 20.000+ tonns top Israel per own transport aircraft (not to talk about all the stuff transported by El Al aircraft)? This would be definitely a very stupid (and expensive) thing to do if these supplies were not urgently needed....Or, would you like to say that the Israelis lied to the USA?

Well, it wouldn't be the first or the last time....

[K-9s BEST]

Mr. Neilsen, I use the reference to Gen. Gonen not as an "ifs, ands, or buts" option, but to illustrate what happens when even generals DON`T follow orders. Dayan wanted the IDF to withdraw all armor to the Mitla Pass, Sharon wanted to attack and cross at a location code named "Lakekan", and Elazar was undecided. In the first few days after the Oct. 6, there was not enough IDF armor to mount offensive operations, and those few armored forays (1 batallion 24 tanks) the first day and another batallion the 2nd day were to RESCUE those soldiers trapped in the Bar-Lev bunkers. Those ops failed with one of the batallions losing 22 tanks and the other 16. Orders for Gonens` attack were never issued and rather than wait for more reserves, he acted.
In its failure, it also emboldened the Egyptian 21st Army to send its` armor into the Sinai on Oct. 14, where it promptly lost 320 tanks vs 6 Israeli tanks in its first day. The next day, Elazar gave the order to cross the canal on Oct 16. (Gonen left the IDF in disgrace & now lives in Africa.)

[K-9s BEST]

Dear Coop... notwithstanding your view of past events, I am TRYING to explain how Nixons` decision(s) were purely Cold War politics against the USSR and NOT thru any motivated interest for Israel or her war. If the reverse were true, the first 4 requests would not have been rejected. On Oct 5 the Israeli ambassador to the U.S. was implicitly told that if Israel preempted, there would definitely be NO aid from the U.S. (Something a really good friend would do?) The State Dept advocated never sending any aid. To defer to Kissinger, Nixon ordered the Defense Dept to prepare but not start until he gave the order. The Soviet rush to re-supply Syria was the deciding factor. Kissinger in his role as National Security advisor viewed no aid to Israel as a Soviet "victory".
Again, by Oct. 10, Syria was NO LONGER the serious threat ,and IDF resources began to be transfered to the Southern Front. IDF armor began successful OFFENSIVE operations on Oct. 14, before the U.S. supply could have any influence. The U.S. response was also a WARNING to Russia that if Soviet TROOPS entered on Syrias` behalf, that the U.S would get further involved. The line about Israeli "lies"... while revealing about your mindset, should be replaced back in your conspiracy file until the next political thread. Ciao.

[K-9s BEST]

My last words on this topic... while opinionated discourse is the premise of this forum, it invariably convolutes into a miasma of the uninformed, partially informed ,informed but biased, outright ignorant, and sometimes the truth. People accept what they WANT to accept. Coop draws his historical inferences from books, and the internet, and what else? Regarding the 1973 war, I was in the U.S.Army whose unit was tasked in analyzing ALL intel, (photo, satellite, radio intercept,etc.) and forwarding the assessment to Washington. We handled the encrypted communications for Kissinger starting in !972. The media was not usually a reliable translation of events as they happened. A few months after the ceasefire took effect, I had the opportunity (in a lifetime) to visit the Sinai battlegrounds and ask questions to IDF veterans (tankers & paratroops) who crossed with Sharon and those who fought at the Chinese Farms area north of Tritur. (Colonels, Capts., and Sgts.) The highlight was visiting the Golan and the Valley of Tears where many of the destroyed Syrian tanks still lay. The blackened patches of earth showed where other tanks had been destroyed before IDF cleanup crews removed them.
Again I got to interview combat veterans. And, the bonus was being in a group addressed by Yitzak Rabin as he went over the events of the war.
My views come with THAT slant. If I have to argue with those who "read" about the Yom Kippur War... well,...never mind.

[K-9s BEST]

And to Coop... if you`re lazy you`ll say that the Phantoms came from the 36th TFW based at Bittburg, cause it says so on some internet sites.
A little good research from USAF says the planes came from the 4th TFW, an Air National Guard Unit based at Seymour Johnson AFB North Carolina, and the 401st TFW based at Torrejon AFB, Spain. The majority arrived between Oct. 18-22, with the remainder after Oct. 25.
At the start of the war the IAF had 120 operational Phantoms, and lost 22 to enemy fire. Tom Cooper lists the serial #s of all downed F-4Es in IAF service.

[Coop]

I always wonder how many people with such special capabilities like ability to read one's mind over thousands of kilometres - are out there on the internet?

There must be thousands - including K-9. Then, thanks Lord and your capabilities, Mister, you know that all of my knowledge about this topic comes from books. Better than that: you know my mindset, you know I talk about conspiracies, know I never served in the military or where I've been the last 30-40 years or so...I guess you also know the name of my grandpa and the size of my shoes, eh?

Sorry, but I can't explain by any other means how else could you came to the idea to conclude anything of what you're accusing me above, then all I mentioned in this context was an answer to question for suggested reading. That is, except you have telepathic capabilities... Have you got these in the US Army, or is your service automatically translating into the fact that you know everything better, and are always right, regardless if you miss the whole context of discussion at hand?

Well, of course, it is impossible for anybody else to have served anywhere in any kind of military - US or not, ever before or after - except you. This is especially the case if this somebody has - regardless if only to a specific part - different opinion and standpoints than yours. Namely, if somebody has a different opinion than you, then it's of no importance that this somebody perhaps travelled to these battlefields (not to talk about quite some other), have seen them with his own eyes, or - Lord forbid - talked with participants and eyewitnesses. Even if, what's the point: hell, you were in the US Army intelligence. What a better place to be informed about the Arab-Israeli wars, but to sit there in that office, 7.000km away...

notwithstanding your view of past events, I am TRYING to explain how Nixons` decision(s) were purely Cold War politics against the USSR and NOT thru any motivated interest for Israel or her war.

And? Please, be so kind and point me at the place where I said anything different?

Ho do you actually want to know that my opinion regarding the US or Soviet/Russian view at Arab-Israeli wars is different than yours - especially if you never asked me?

Because this is a thread about Arabs in War, and I'm trying to explain the Arab viewpoints and their way of thinking?

If the reverse were true, the first 4 requests would not have been rejected. On Oct 5 the Israeli ambassador to the U.S. was implicitly told that if Israel preempted, there would definitely be NO aid from the U.S. (Something a really good friend would do?) The State Dept advocated never sending any aid. To defer to Kissinger, Nixon ordered the Defense Dept to prepare but not start until he gave the order. The Soviet rush to re-supply Syria was the deciding factor. Kissinger in his role as National Security advisor viewed no aid to Israel as a Soviet "victory".

Beautiful. Really magnificent explanations. I could discuss some details then what I read in various US intel documents I've got released according to FOIA procedure things look differently, but who cares now. What I'd like to know is: in which context does this stands to anything I ever stated, wrote, or else - privately or in public - so that you're "teaching" me about this all in the first place? Who told you that I don't know about this all?

The line about Israeli "lies"... while revealing about your mindset, should be replaced back in your conspiracy file until the next political thread.

Read that line again and leave my mindset be my own problem.

And, re. conspiracy: don't put your own words into my mouth.

Coop draws his historical inferences from books, and the internet, and what else? Regarding the 1973 war, I was in the U.S.Army whose unit was tasked in analyzing ALL intel, (photo, satellite, radio intercept,etc.) and forwarding the assessment to Washington. We handled the encrypted communications for Kissinger starting in !972....

Nice. Tell me now something: are you the only one to have ever been to Sinai, especially to the area known as "Chinese Farm"? Are you the only one to have ever been to Golan, or could it be there are people who visited both sides? Are you going to say that you're the only one to have ever had the opportunity to de-brief vets of these battles?

Oh, and, BTW, you talked with Israelis: so what? I'm doing the same since years: I'm still in contact with a party of people that used to serve with Adan's Ugdah. But, have you ever de-briefed any Arab vets from that war (and that for days)?

This is not making me anything special, nor do I find this a reason to brag at anybody at each and every opportunity, or threat him like an adolescent. The point is that such sources are not available to everybody here: so, should I now be explaining to some interested teenager, "son, travel to Egypt and find yourself few of former Egyptian T-62-drivers in order to learn what was going on there...."?

Is it now so that one can behave the way you do, bash somebody, put the words into his mouth and do whatever you want, because you've been there and talked with few Israelis?

Oh, yeah: you met Yitzak Rabin. I guess I'll have to throw myself on the ground whenever you post a single additional sentence - while wondering what should you be doing if I post the list of people I met....

Could you, please, come down from this ivory tower, Mr. "K-9", or is that too much to ask from you?

I could understand if realization that you're not the only one here who served in the military ever might be too much to grasp, but, you could do so at least for the sake of this discussion. After all, there might be a prupose for existence of internet forums - like this one. If nothing else, you could at least try to read more carefully...

[Coop]

And to Coop... if you`re lazy you`ll say that the Phantoms came from the 36th TFW based at Bittburg, cause it says so on some internet sites.

Who said my source was internet - or are you reading my mind again?

A little good research from USAF says the planes came from the 4th TFW, an Air National Guard Unit based at Seymour Johnson AFB North Carolina, and the 401st TFW based at Torrejon AFB, Spain. The majority arrived between Oct. 18-22, with the remainder after Oct. 25.

If you want to talk about such details, then get them right at least.

Op Nickel Grass began already on 13 October, with first exUSAF F-4Es arriving in Israel already by 15 October. If the first F-4Es were delivered only between 18 and 20 October, namely, it would be impossible for at least four of them - including 66-0352, 67-0326, 67-0346 and 71-0246 - to have been shot down by Arabs already by 20 October. In fact, the 66-0352 was lost already on 17 October.

The fact that none of these transfers was shown in any FMS transfer list before 19 October, means not that they did not take place. It only shows that too much dependence on official documents is not leading in the right direction either. Call it a "conspiracy", if you like, but the USAF is not always taking greatest possible care about such "details" like dates or serials: it didn't do that in the case of RF-4Cs that operated out of Israel already in 1967, and even less so in the case of A-wired RF-4Cs that flew recce missions over the USSR - from Iran, in the early 1970s - and were subsequently sold to IIAF...

At the start of the war the IAF had 120 operational Phantoms, and lost 22 to enemy fire. Tom Cooper lists the serial #s of all downed F-4Es in IAF service.

I know about Cooper and his blow-by-blow research: I'd say it's the only way to find out what happened there.

But, I don't know where did he ever list the serial Nos. of all the IDF/AF F-4Es downed in 1973. If he did so, I missed something extremely interesting. How about supporting this with some evidence?

[K-9s BEST]

Wow, ...such umbrage taken!!!
I didn`t brandish the background of my "experiences" as the delineating final WORD on the events of the Yom Kippur War, to the exclusion of other participants whom might have knowledge of events others would not be privy. My main responses to your posts (May 23, 6:28-May 25, 6:01-Jun 27, 6:04-Jun 28, 9:36) are fostered not with animus to your opinions, but you`re rewriting of events not borne out fact.
Example: May 23, 6:28 "Syrian front stabilized Oct 12..." WRONG!
By Oct 9, there was no further advance by Syrian tanks, allowing the IDF to began transfering units on Oct 10.
"their militaries are neither organized or equipped..." RIGHT! All IDFs` casualities were caused spitballs. (can you read a TOE?)
"Arab fighting...first strike...short conflict...matters solved through political negotiation,,," What Middle East are YOU watching? (I guess -throw the Jews in the sea - is just flowery prose?)
"...more Israeli tanks than Egyptian..." You probably MEANT to say -at the END of the fighting?
May 25, 6:01 "...even Israeli sources confirm that there was no plan for an invasion...in 1967." See, when you say something like that the logic just goes away.
Jun 27, 6:04 " reasons they(Arabs) went to war...recovering military pride" "Egypt could`ve lost all of its army, navy, air force..." Military pride is victory of arms, or in defeat, a valiant stand against overwhelming force.
"40 IAF aircraft/helos downed in air combat..." No proof of THAT.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...ar/2848/losses
It lists all victories & losses by the IAF since 1948.
Jun28, 9:36 "a) the Syrians STOPPED their advance at the critical moment..." NO, the IDF stopped the Syrian advance. (small point)
"b) the Egyptian president...and then ignored the Israeli counterattack for 2 days" Yeah, 2 IDF tank divisions cross the canal & Sadat says-Let`s ignore them! Maybe you meant to say he was IGNORANT of their presense until Kosygin showed him satellite photos?
"like Adan to...clean the Chinese Farm". Maybe the friends of yours in your last post forgot to mention that it was 300 paratroopers from the 890th Battalion who ACTUALLY did the cleaning w/o armor.
See, Coop, I don`t know everything about EVERY THING, and documents can be inaccurate, and heavens knows that 5 years living in the Middle East doesn`t make me an EXPERT, and my military service pales besides others, and I never interviewed Egyptian/Syrian Generals for their opinions, and I have little,...mmm NO, interest in your grandpa`s age or your shoe size. OBVIOUSLY, you have access to "facts" I or others don`t, and THAT`S just fine. I somehow get the impression you really know MORE about the IDF than even Israelis do, and an even BETTER comprehension of the Arab mind over everyone else.
I can`t say its` been fun, cause it hasn`t. You may have the last word and declare "victory", but if you do have a riposte, keep it clean and pithy.

[speckfire]

All this talk is bla bla bla this bla bla bla that. There is only 1 thing that saves Israel time and time again against full scale wars and that's it's Airforce. Everything else is extra !!!! The IAF is the key. When Israel controls the skies... that's it..... the game is over for it's enemies. No but's.. ifs ... or ..why's. It's a clear fact.

[Kaplanr]

If you can get a hold of it, the other good book to read, albeit from the Israeli side, is David Elazar's biography Dado: 48 Years and 20 More Days by Hanoch Bar-Tov.

What makes it an intriguing read is the look at mid level staffers in the IDF General Staff. Usually we read books that focus on the National command structure or the tactical level, this falls in-between. You also get the idea that Sharon was a loose cannon, though Bar-Tov isn't as harsh as Adan is in his book.

As to the Golan. The Syrians didn't stop us as much as we ran out of steam, and saw no reason to continue. There was nothing else to be gained by continuing on. We got to the point of being one artillery battery from Damascus.

[Coop]

Interesting, K-9, how you blissfully ignored EVERY single of my questions....

I guess you didn't even read them, right?

Wow, ...such umbrage taken!!!
I didn`t brandish the background of my "experiences" as the delineating final WORD on the events of the Yom Kippur War, to the exclusion of other participants whom might have knowledge of events others would not be privy. My main responses to your posts (May 23, 6:28-May 25, 6:01-Jun 27, 6:04-Jun 28, 9:36) are fostered not with animus to your opinions, but you`re rewriting of events not borne out fact.
Example: May 23, 6:28 "Syrian front stabilized Oct 12..." WRONG!
By Oct 9, there was no further advance by Syrian tanks, allowing the IDF to began transfering units on Oct 10.

How often did I already say, you should be reading more carefully?

That would help you to see that I was explaining about situation from the SYRIAN side - because the talk was that the Egyptians have launched their offensive in order to decrease Israeli pressure upon Syria. The Syrians, K-9 - repat: SYRIANS - have stabilized THEIR frontlines by the 12 October. This is an important fact, then - according to what such ignorants like you explain - Egypt launched its offensive on 14 October in order to decrease Israeli pressure upon Syria.

Now, if you'd really know what this mean in the whole context of this war, it would perhaps make sence to explain you why is this fact so important. Given, however, that yo do not read, and even less so understand, what I write, it makes no sence at all.

You'll illustrate this as next explaining that there was only one side in that war - that of Israel, and there is nothing else that matters or counts...

It was their
"their militaries are neither organized or equipped..." RIGHT! All IDFs` casualities were caused spitballs. (can you read a TOE?)

I said already several times: READ CAREFULLY.

My WHOLE sentence says: Their militaries are in essence neither organized nor equipped, and even less so trained, for protracted campaigns, manoeuvring warfare and similar facetes of modern armed conflict. Their regimes do not consider such capabilities as important: they can only consider them as "dangerous" (for themselves).

Having problem with READING WHOLE SENTENCES?

No? Then, how comes you draw a completely - and utterly - wrong conclusion on the basis of its first few words?

"Arab fighting...first strike...short conflict...matters solved through political negotiation,,," What Middle East are YOU watching? (I guess -throw the Jews in the sea - is just flowery prose?)

What has THIS to do with what I said about the ARAB WAY OF FIGHTING WARS?

"...more Israeli tanks than Egyptian..." You probably MEANT to say -at the END of the fighting?

Aha. And? If you find this "wrong", then why are you so obviously too lazy to show you're right and explain us how many MBTs has the Egyptian Army had at the onset of the war? How many MBTs has the Syrian Army had at the onset of the war - and how many MBTs has the Israeli Army had at the same time?

May 25, 6:01 "...even Israeli sources confirm that there was no plan for an invasion...in 1967." See, when you say something like that the logic just goes away.

Can you cite any of your phantastic US Army documents, any Israeli or Arab document, specifying any kind of details of any kind of an Arab military plan for an invasion of Israel, Mr. Logic?

Jun 27, 6:04 " reasons they(Arabs) went to war...recovering military pride" "Egypt could`ve lost all of its army, navy, air force..." Military pride is victory of arms, or in defeat, a valiant stand against overwhelming force.

Are you only able of unrelated, nonsensical babbling, or could you finally state also something that makes sence?

If the later is the case: how do you then explain the reasons for Arabs going to a war with Israel, in 1973? Show me that you're at least worth loosing time...

"40 IAF aircraft/helos downed in air combat..." No proof of THAT.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...ar/2848/losses
It lists all victories & losses by the IAF since 1948.

As first: we are not talking about "all victories & losses by the "IAF" (the correct designation is IDF/AF) since 1948: we are talking about IDF/AF losses in air-to-air combats during the war in 1973.

As second, you mentioned Tom Cooper as your source: he is the first better-known (in the public) author who mentions such a figure for Israeli losses during that war.

As third: you complained I'm using "only books & internet": all the "evidence" you're now providing is an internet website.

So, can you at least provide a list of Israeli losses, one by one, in 1973 - in order to show me wrong?

Jun28, 9:36 "a) the Syrians STOPPED their advance at the critical moment..." NO, the IDF stopped the Syrian advance. (small point)

I see. So, how do you explain the reasons for the Syrian 132 Mechanised Brigade to stop its advance toward el-Fiq - when there was actually nothing in front of it left to defend the road towards the Sea of Galilee?

"b) the Egyptian president...and then ignored the Israeli counterattack for 2 days" Yeah, 2 IDF tank divisions cross the canal & Sadat says-Let`s ignore them! Maybe you meant to say he was IGNORANT of their presense until Kosygin showed him satellite photos?

Can you cite even a single Arab source that would confirm this statement of yours?

"like Adan to...clean the Chinese Farm". Maybe the friends of yours in your last post forgot to mention that it was 300 paratroopers from the 890th Battalion who ACTUALLY did the cleaning w/o armor.

To which Ugdah was Col. Uzzi Ya'iri's Paratroop brigade attached?

To Laner's? To Peled's, to Sharon's - or, could it have been Adan's?

Considering the answer, what is actually your point? Quarrel at any price?

See, Coop, I don`t know everything about EVERY THING, and documents can be inaccurate, and heavens knows that 5 years living in the Middle East doesn`t make me an EXPERT, and my military service pales besides others, and I never interviewed Egyptian/Syrian Generals for their opinions, and I have little,...mmm NO, interest in your grandpa`s age or your shoe size. OBVIOUSLY, you have access to "facts" I or others don`t, and THAT`S just fine.

You could've been born somewhere in the Middle East, and that would change nothing on the fact that what you're talking about here, what you're criticising me about, is nonsence. You failed even to read a single sentence of what I posted to the end. This is result of your sheer ignorance, resulting in prejudice and supositions, nothing else.

Let me now show you how good I am at reading your mind: You've noticed that there is somebody posting more to this topic, you've caught a glimpse of what he posted, you "know everything better", and so you started quarreling without writing my posts and - even less so having a point in the first place.

I somehow get the impression you really know MORE about the IDF than even Israelis do, and an even BETTER comprehension of the Arab mind over everyone else.
I can`t say its` been fun, cause it hasn`t. You may have the last word and declare "victory", but if you do have a riposte, keep it clean and pithy.

Babblablah... You're leaving no impression at all - except that of somebody who got confused in time and space, mainly because you ignored plenty of road-signs - and even your own wrist-watch...

As to the Golan. The Syrians didn't stop us as much as we ran out of steam, and saw no reason to continue.

That's disputable, to say the least. The fact is, that Laner definitely stopped his advance because of the appearance of the Iraqi 6th Mechanised Brigade/3rd Armoured Division and the Jordanian 40 Armoured Brigade in his southern flank.

Arguably, after the Iraqis were mauled, on the early morning of 13 October, there were further discussions about the sence of an advance towards Damascus. By the time Laner was ready to go on, the Iraqis bought time for the Syrians to close the gap in the lines of their 3rd Armoured Division: further advance would only cause additional heavy losses - like those sustained during over-confident and unsupported armour attacks against Tel Shams, on 11 October. It was this - together with arrival of additional Arab reinforcements (foremost the rest of the Iraqi 3rd Armoured) that resulted in the idea of stopping advance.