Iran and N.Korea: an embarrrassment for G.W. Bush.

[BlackRain]

Black rain wrote

How did Iran Get a Nuclear Program to Begin With?

The Shah of Iran had awarded a contract to the Siemens AG of the then West Germany for the construction of two nuclear power reactors with a capacity of 1,000 MW each at Bushehr, 750 kms south of Tehran, and lent US $ one billion to France to finance the construction of the Eurodif uranium enrichment plant at Drone in southern France in return for a commitment that fuel from this plant would be available for Iran's nuclear power stations. Both these agreements were violated by Germany and France after the Islamic Revolution succeeded.

this happen in the late 70's.with the support of the USA
when Khomeny (sorry) take control over Iran the Eurodif deal collapse.

And? What is your point? It was already mentioned above. Then end result is that Russia completed the reactors. However, Achilles believes that fact is Bush's fault.

So what are Bush's options.

1) Pre-emptive attack on Iran and North Korea.
2) Use diplomacy to prevent further proliferation.

It seems that Bush is currently being attacked for the latter and we know Achilles would not tolerate a pre-emptive attack.

Achilles and article's author made a mistake in their argument.

You cannot blame Operation Iraqi Freedom for furthering the development of North Korea's or Iran's Nuclear Weapons project.

North Korea has possessed nuclear weapons YEARS prior to Bush coming to office.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB87/nk22.pdf

Iranian officials have admitted to the United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) that they have been secretly developing a broad range of nuclear capabilities for the past 18 years.

[achilles]

And? What is your point? It was already mentioned above. Then end result is that Russia completed the reactors. However, Achilles believes that fact is Bush's fault.

Hey you can address directly to me Rainy...i hope you are not mad or anything

Well, as usual, you are wrong. Achilles believes that Bush's fault has to do with the fact that he devoted the wrong resources to the wrong cause. He could have been more focused on hindering Russia. Instead, he invaded the 'wrong' place at the wrong time, for , purpotedly, the wrong reasons. Well done Bush. Take a look at Iraq today, and then take a look at how much those two rogue states have been deterred. I am wondering where is the real war on terror. I cannot think of too many think that could be more terrorizing that N.Korea or Iran shooting their nukes against the rest of us. Long shot, but you never know.

So what are Bush's options.

1) Pre-emptive attack on Iran and North Korea.
2) Use diplomacy to prevent further proliferation.

Wrong again. You only project the choices that suit your pro-republican, anti-European propaganda. Bush's options were actually the following:
---Devote more diplomatic and economic resources in dealing with Iran and N.Korea and let the irrelevant Iraqis sort their mess on their own. Not that now Iraq is in a better shape. I hope to be wrong, but we havent seen anything yet.
---Invade Iraq based on fake evidence, blame CIA and tough luck for all the unfortunate outcomes, and eventually neglect the real enemy.

I supposed the fact that Bush chose the latter does not bother you. After all, you are no so much used to confusing yourself with facts


It seems that Bush is currently being attacked for the latter and we know Achilles would not tolerate a pre-emptive attack.

No Achilles can tolerate anything that is not based on a hoax (see WMD) and can pretty much tolerate offensive moves that aim at the real enemy.
I suppose you could tolerate a potential Dubya invasion in Iceland, because those guys over there seem to be putting a lot of stress on fisheries .

[BlackRain]

There are absolutely no reasonable criteria under which Greece can be put to 'trial' about anything pertaining to NW, or any WMD for that matter.

Sure I can.

Greece is a country which has signed the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

Greece has failed to offer any help to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons in North Korea or Iran or ask them to use their existing nuclear reactors exclusively for peaceful purposes.

[achilles]

North Korea has possessed nuclear weapons YEARS prior to Bush coming to office

Sometimes your posts are readable. This one is sorta funny.

Noone said that its because of Bush that N.Korea went nuclear. Even my dog knows that N.K. got her nukes from the former USSR a few decades ago.

The thing is that Dubya seems to be incompetent, in his unilateral world, to deal with the specific problem and seems to be looking at the wrong direction.

Reading the article again would help i believe.

[achilles]

There are absolutely no reasonable criteria under which Greece can be put to 'trial' about anything pertaining to NW, or any WMD for that matter.

Sure I can.

Greece is a country which has signed the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

Greece has failed to offer any help to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons in North Korea or Iran or ask them to use their existing nuclear reactors exclusively for peaceful purposes.

Ahhhh damn...yeah i see...

Well you should take us to the International Court of Justice in that case.

Call Hague...and while you are at it...name one by one the countries that have actively discouraged Iran and N.Korea from proceedig with their nuclear program.

[achilles]

Of course the answer is that people who are promoting this idiotic line of reasoning really don't care if NK or Iran goes nuclear as long as they are able to somehow blame the US for it.

As usual, good posts by 2Sheds.

Iran and N.Korea are to be blamed 2Sheds, but from where i stand the article does not claim that. It just criticizes Bush for allocating resources to the seemingly 'wrong' cause. No, America did not build NK's nukes but its inability, or unwillingness if you like, to deal with the problem has encouraged those two to go nuclear. ( i have little doubt that Iran will get a nuclear warhead in due time).

And dont forget that the article i posted comes from a publication which was very fast in advocating the invasion of Iraq.

[thibaud]

Black rain wrote

How did Iran Get a Nuclear Program to Begin With?

The Shah of Iran had awarded a contract to the Siemens AG of the then West Germany for the construction of two nuclear power reactors with a capacity of 1,000 MW each at Bushehr, 750 kms south of Tehran, and lent US $ one billion to France to finance the construction of the Eurodif uranium enrichment plant at Drone in southern France in return for a commitment that fuel from this plant would be available for Iran's nuclear power stations. Both these agreements were violated by Germany and France after the Islamic Revolution succeeded.

this happen in the late 70's.with the support of the USA
when Khomeny (sorry) take control over Iran the Eurodif deal collapse.

And? What is your point? It was already mentioned above. Then end result is that Russia completed the reactors. However, Achilles believes that fact is Bush's fault.

So what are Bush's options.

1) Pre-emptive attack on Iran and North Korea.
2) Use diplomacy to prevent further proliferation.

It seems that Bush is currently being attacked for the latter and we know Achilles would not tolerate a pre-emptive attack.

Achilles and article's author made a mistake in their argument.

You cannot blame Operation Iraqi Freedom for furthering the development of North Korea's or Iran's Nuclear Weapons project.

North Korea has possessed nuclear weapons YEARS prior to Bush coming to office.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB87/nk22.pdf

Iranian officials have admitted to the United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) that they have been secretly developing a broad range of nuclear capabilities for the past 18 years.

you "re asking what is my point.

just not to let you spread lie about French or German comitment with Iranian 's nuclear program.

Both these agreements were violated by Germany and France after the Islamic Revolution succeeded.

first lie.like i said the eurodif deal collapse.
Claude Besse was killed because of that.
there were terorist actions in Paris.
French journalist were hostage in Beiruth.

It was already mentioned above

the fact you keep lying?

for the remainder i don't give a f..k.

didn't the USA deafeated the big nuclear USSR.

let me being stupid.
in the USA everybody can protect himself(by wearing a gun)
_nothing distubing you here
in the World every contry can('t) protect himself(by getting nuclear weapon)
_something disturbing you here

don't talk about the npt.

[BlackRain]

Black rain wrote

How did Iran Get a Nuclear Program to Begin With?

The Shah of Iran had awarded a contract to the Siemens AG of the then West Germany for the construction of two nuclear power reactors with a capacity of 1,000 MW each at Bushehr, 750 kms south of Tehran, and lent US $ one billion to France to finance the construction of the Eurodif uranium enrichment plant at Drone in southern France in return for a commitment that fuel from this plant would be available for Iran's nuclear power stations. Both these agreements were violated by Germany and France after the Islamic Revolution succeeded.

this happen in the late 70's.with the support of the USA
when Khomeny (sorry) take control over Iran the Eurodif deal collapse.

And? What is your point? It was already mentioned above. Then end result is that Russia completed the reactors. However, Achilles believes that fact is Bush's fault.

So what are Bush's options.

1) Pre-emptive attack on Iran and North Korea.
2) Use diplomacy to prevent further proliferation.

It seems that Bush is currently being attacked for the latter and we know Achilles would not tolerate a pre-emptive attack.

Achilles and article's author made a mistake in their argument.

You cannot blame Operation Iraqi Freedom for furthering the development of North Korea's or Iran's Nuclear Weapons project.

North Korea has possessed nuclear weapons YEARS prior to Bush coming to office.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB87/nk22.pdf

Iranian officials have admitted to the United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) that they have been secretly developing a broad range of nuclear capabilities for the past 18 years.

you "re asking what is my point.

just not to let you spread lie about French or German comitment with Iranian 's nuclear program.

Both these agreements were violated by Germany and France after the Islamic Revolution succeeded.

first lie.like i said the eurodif deal collapse.
Claude Besse was killed because of that.
there were terorist actions in Paris.
French journalist were hostage in Beiruth.

It was already mentioned above

the fact you keep lying?

for the remainder i don't give a f..k.

didn't the USA deafeated the big nuclear USSR.

let me being stupid.
in the USA everybody can protect himself(by wearing a gun)
_nothing distubing you here
in the World every contry can('t) protect himself(by getting nuclear weapon)
_something disturbing you here

don't talk about the npt.

Tres bizzare !?!

don't talk about the npt.

?? I have no idea what your post was supposed to mean. Are you telling me I am not allowed to discuss Nuclear Proliferation Treaty or .... sorry I still can't figure out your post.

[Kilgor]

Hahah.. now they are whinging because the US is not doing something ?

Dammed if you do and dammed if you dont.

[KB]

Interesting post from The Economist.

It seems to be that the rest of the world doesn't seem too concerned whether Iran and North Korea acquire nuclear weapons and are letting their visceral dislike of the Administration color their ability to perceive a bigger threat. Unfortunately the US military is so strapped with Iraq commitments its ability to credibly intimidate Iran and NK seem severely limited.

[BlackRain]

Interesting post from The Economist.

It seems to be that the rest of the world doesn't seem too concerned whether Iran and North Korea acquire nuclear weapons and are letting their visceral dislike of the Administration color their ability to perceive a bigger threat. Unfortunately the US military is so strapped with Iraq commitments its ability to credibly intimidate Iran and NK seem severely limited.

We may not be able to intimidate but we will be able to respond.

Why do you think we have been adding B2 and F117 rotations in Guam.

For the first time, a B-2 Spirit bomber squadron with stealth functions was deployed in late February for a two-month tour of duty at Andersen Air Force Base in Guam to enhance regional security in the western Pacific, according to U.S. Air Force officials. But the squadron is extending its stay for an indefinite time.

[Abolith]

What I find amusing is that those who knock Bush over Iraq, and are pointing fingers at him about NK & Iran would also oppose any unilateral US action against NK & Iran. They simply relish the opportunity to see things go wrong, and be able to blame the US for it.

If NK and Iran go nuclear, is that not the fault of NK and Iran? Are they not the ones who should be held to account, not Bush?

Either the world belongs to the US and we get to manage it, and if it goes wrong then we are to blame, or it is not. If it is, then shut the hell up about Iraq because it is ours to do with as we want. If it is not, then why is NK and Iran "our" problem to begin with? Get off your ass and do something about it yourself. If the UN is the one to solve these issues, why is blame and scorn not being heaped upon the UN?

Of course the answer is that people who are promoting this idiotic line of reasoning really don't care if NK or Iran goes nuclear as long as they are able to somehow blame the US for it.

X2

[GazB]

Very amusing.

First of all I doubt the NK or Iran would even want to aquire nuclear weapons if the US was a bit better at diplomacy and realised that the carrot and stick method only works if you actually let them know there is a carrot and actually let them see it is an option.

Second NK got its nuclear knowhow the same way Iran has learnt a few things recently. If you were actually paying attention it was the great ally of the US, Pakistan that leaked nuclear secrets to NK and Iran. NK has only recently achieved nuclear weapon ownership, the Soviet Union didn't share its nuclear weapon secrets with anyone willingly, that was one of the major reasons for the Soviet China split. None of the eastern european countries in the warsaw pact had control over nuclear weapons either. Pakistan probably got their nuclear capability from China. Pakistan funneled most CIA money through China to buy weapons like AKs that the Afghans were trained to use already through conscription.

[achilles]

Hey Rainy, i am still waiting for that list of countries who proacitively contribute to the non-proliferation of nukes.


Take ya time...

[vryhpyammoadded]

What I find amusing is that those who knock Bush over Iraq, and are pointing fingers at him about NK & Iran would also oppose any unilateral US action against NK & Iran. They simply relish the opportunity to see things go wrong, and be able to blame the US for it.

If NK and Iran go nuclear, is that not the fault of NK and Iran? Are they not the ones who should be held to account, not Bush?

Either the world belongs to the US and we get to manage it, and if it goes wrong then we are to blame, or it is not. If it is, then shut the hell up about Iraq because it is ours to do with as we want. If it is not, then why is NK and Iran "our" problem to begin with? Get off your ass and do something about it yourself. If the UN is the one to solve these issues, why is blame and scorn not being heaped upon the UN?

Of course the answer is that people who are promoting this idiotic line of reasoning really don't care if NK or Iran goes nuclear as long as they are able to somehow blame the US for it.

Blame shifting and denial can be key tools of propaganda or a sign of insanity. My opinion is that there is a large amount of both in the increasingly corrupted mindset of the world’s leftist factions. Why? The pressure is on from another philosophy. People are demanding change and results that the entrenched factions have been unwilling or failed to accomplish in 30+ years.
Like I’ve said before, the US leftist factions and to some extent, the worlds leftist factions are under stress, feeling threatened and as of yet incapable of organizing a credible response and therefore experiencing something akin to the five stages of death anxiety.