Commando Order

[Royal]

SOE were seperate from the commandos, a sort of secret agent type outfit - they operated as saboteurs etc and generally ended up stacked up against a wall if caught. They knew they were outside of the conventions of war, so they did not appy them. The shooting of prisoners within the regular armed forces was never condoned by the UK unless it was a sentence of court martial. Did it happen - yes it did, but it was done by those acting outside of military regulations and such acts were criminal. The incident that probably started the commando order was the discovery of dead German soldiers with their arms tied behind their back after a commando raid. Considering the commandos ofter brought prisoners back, its unlikely they were taken prisoner just so they could be shot. It is possible they were caught in crossfire or shot trying to escape - hard to say withought modern forensic science. To the credit of the Germans, many did not consider the commando order "legal" and did their best to circumvent the order.

SOE were not a military organisation, in exacltly the same way as MI6 or OSS. Yes, military personell served in them (both), but as civilians. They operated as espionage and sabotage organisations, not outwith the laws of war, but certainly outwith the terms of the Geneva conventions - which incidentally do not require combatants to be in uniform, merely to wear an identifying emblem.

[SamHamam]

SOE were not a military organisation, in exacltly the same way as MI6 or OSS. Yes, military personell served in them (both), but as civilians. They operated as espionage and sabotage organisations, not outwith the laws of war, but certainly outwith the terms of the Geneva conventions - which incidentally do not require combatants to be in uniform, merely to wear an identifying emblem.

I don't think that that is the whole story, certainly SOE were not a military organisation as they were part of the Min of Economic Warfare, however military personnel working for SOE would have remained military personnel. IIRC the Jedbergh (sp?) teams came under SOE and they certainly operated in uniform. I'm pretty certain that a number of other military personnel dropped to train the Marquis were also uniformed and therefore should have been covered by the Geneva conventions of the time.

Were the SAS Bulbasket etc mission not SOE controlled? I don’t think that they were run out of Combined Ops?

[Royal]

Bullbasket (and the other SAS/SBS/RMBPD/LRDG/30 AU etc etc) missions in occupied europe were not conducted under the aegis of SIS/SOE. There was a certain amount of interconnectedness of personell between SIS/SOE and the military (as there still is) - but they were civilian espionage operations outside the laws of war.

[SamHamam]

Bullbasket (and the other SAS/SBS/RMBPD/LRDG/30 AU etc etc) missions in occupied europe were not conducted under the aegis of SIS/SOE. There was a certain amount of interconnectedness of personell between SIS/SOE and the military (as there still is) - but they were civilian espionage operations outside the laws of war.

It was certainly not as simple as that. SOE (under the Min of Econ Warfare) - their mission being, as WSC directed, "to set Europe ablaze" were a sabotage not an espionage organisation. Their charter (issued 19 July 1940) set out the purpose of SOE as being to “co-ordinate all action by way of sabotage and subversion, against the enemy overseas”. Therefore many of the units you list did indeed carry out operations under the aegis of SOE. They did not (then) work for SIS (who were an espionage organisation) and whose institutional loathing for SOE is well known.

To give some examples

The attack on the Vermork plant was an SOE operation, as you will recall, the original intention was to use the Gider-borne Sappers who were murderd under the commando order Clearly to my mind a military operation not a civilian one.

Jedburghs were run by SOE (see for instance ‘War Behind Enemy Lines’ by Julian Thompson) and they were uniformed military parties, totalling about 300 personnel in France. There was a lot of cross working with, for instance Houndsworth and Bulbasket (note spelling), see both Julian Thompson's book and Swords of Lightning by Terry White.

30AU don't really fit into the list of units that you gave as there were not a cross-FLOT operation albeit that they were a very near FLOT one. RMBPD is an interesting one, clearly not an SOE Op but FRANKTON was carried out at the bequest of the Min of EW, so how would you differtiate that from an SOE operation carried out by UK personnel in uniform from a laws of war (as they then stood) point of view.

It is interesting to note what Mike Calvert had to say in his post war paper on the value of the SAS Bde.

“My experoience is that SOE and SAS are complementary to each other… SOE can only do a certain amount before requiring, when their operations become overt, highly trained, armned bodies in uniform to oprate and set an example to the local resistance. SOE are the ‘white hunters’ and produce the ground organisation of which the SAS operates.”

[Royal]

30AU don't really fit into the list of units that you gave as there were not a cross-FLOT operation albeit that they were a very near FLOT one. RMBPD is an interesting one, clearly not an SOE Op but FRANKTON was carried out at the bequest of the Min of EW, so how would you differtiate that from an SOE operation carried out by UK personnel in uniform from a laws of war (as they then stood) point of view.

30 Commando/30AU were very much a cross FLOT organisation - they operated F-FLOT in North Africa, Italy, Yugoslavia, the Eastern Med and mainland Europe.

The main critisism of them in Sicily - was precisely that that didn't operate forward of the FLOT on the two occasions where they did (against orders) they took their major Int coups there (the sub-surface weapons facility, and a German mobile Y station).

[Kilgor]

I always thought that spies and sabotours were shot on the spot, in both the allied and axis countries. ?

There was a case of a german u-boat crew who sneaked onto american land to carry out missions, however they were quickly and very secretly executed as not to raise public fear.

[Johnny_H]

Those tales are always over embellished, I mean there was a rumor in Nova Scotia that a Uboat crew actually went ashore in Cape Breton ... caught a movie at the local theater and then set back to sea, Believe it or not that is a accepted story in some circles.

I dont believe it personally though.

[Kilgor]

http://uboat.net/ops/agents1942.htm

German saboteur landings in June 1942

[James]

I always thought that spies and sabotours were shot on the spot, in both the allied and axis countries. ?

There was a case of a german u-boat crew who sneaked onto american land to carry out missions, however they were quickly and very secretly executed as not to raise public fear.

Not shot on the spot - interrogated first. Many operatives who were captured by the Germans ended up in the camps and died there.

There wasn't a whole U-Boat crew that went ashore in the States, just 4 or 5 guys. I think all but one were eventually executed.

[hist2004]

link for sabotage teams landed by U-Boat in the U.S.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ad.php?t=59254

Hist2004

[SamHamam]

30 Commando/30AU were very much a cross FLOT organisation - they operated F-FLOT in North Africa, Italy, Yugoslavia, the Eastern Med and mainland Europe.

The main critisism of them in Sicily - was precisely that that didn't operate forward of the FLOT on the two occasions where they did (against orders) they took their major Int coups there (the sub-surface weapons facility, and a German mobile Y station).

Looks like I need to recheck my sources - I'm sure that I used to have a history of the unit somewhere but can't find it.