Reply With QuoteHow about rucks
Vietnam: Carry of 30-round magazines
Only few 30-round magazines were available during the Vietnam war, and no magazine pouches were issued for those. How were they carried? Some sources suggest canteen carriers, which strike me as not deep enough. Claymore bags? How many would fit into one?
Also, I know 20-rounders were carried in canteen carriers -- how many would fit in one? Six?
Thanks!
Cheers
HANS
How about rucks
I'm no Vietnam expert but I think the M1956 ammo pouch designed to carry two 7.62mm 20-round magazines should be able to carry maybe three of the 30-round magazines?
If there's still the old BAR pouches laying around, that should do as well.
Claymore mine bags are designed to carry 2 claymores and associated equipment. I would think you could fit at least 4 mags in the front slots and then at least another 2, if not another 4 in the rear bag part.
Rattles a bit though, if you put it in a claymore bag, unless you tie it off with a cloth tape.
The M56 ammo pouches can hold 3-4 30 round magazines. Later in the war M67 30 round mag pouches came out, an they could hold 3 30 round magazines. Others put them in canteen carriers.
M56 Universal Ammo pouches
http://www.mooremilitaria.com/M14%20Pouch%20EXC.JPG
M67 30 round mag ammo pouch
http://www.mooremilitaria.com/30rd%20nylon_small.jpg
I find this site very informative when looking for Vietnam era gear
http://www.thevietnam-database.co.uk/
SEALs carried 30 round AK mags in empty Canteen Covers - seen 2-3 of them baddies in some pictures... Imagine, the same could have been done with shorter/wider M16 30 rounders.
edit: Dang it, didn't see DnA's post
The vietnam database website is pretty good.
>The M56 ammo pouches can hold 3-4 30 round magazines.
I rather doubt this. The M1956 pouch could hold four M16 20-rounders or two M14 magazines, but I think it is not deep enough for the 30-rounders. I read several accounts which explicitly mentioned that the 30-rounders would not fit, and that they therefore had to carry them elsewhere -- therefore my question.
>Later in the war M67 30 round mag pouches came out, an they could hold 3 30 round magazines.
According to Rottman US ARMY COMBAT EQUIPMENTS and Stanton US ARMY UNIFORMS OF THE VIETNAM WAR, the 30-rounder pouches were adopted in 1974. They may have been around earlier, but they were certainly not common.
Incidently, http://www.thevietnam-database.co.uk/ writes this:
"Notes: The M1956 ammo pouch was introduced in 1957. It was sometimes called the "M14" as it was initially designed for this weapon and not M16. Some sources (Miraldi, 1999:145) state that it was mistakenly known as the M14 ammo pouch, however it does in fact carry both types of magazines.
Variations: There are several variations. The earliest pouch is made of canvas and has a metal front plate to protect the ammunition from fragments and a grommet through the securing tab. This was replaced in 1962 with a pouch of the same size but without the metal plate and tab grommet. This gives a a crumpled appearence when empty (Pictured above). A smaller size of pouch still made of canvas appeared in late 1967 to early 1968. These were designed for easier access to the shorter M16 20 round magazine. Several sources disagree on the actual date these appeared. Both types fit the same number of magazines but in the smaller pouch magazines are easier to reach. There is another same smaller size but instead made of nylon. This is part of the M1967 webbing. The forth type is the early ALICE pouches specifically designed for 20 and 30 round M16 magazines (Miraldi, 1999), but these are not Vietnam War period."
But then contradicts it with this:
"Another photos showing M1967 M16 30 rounds magazine pouch. Date is 1969. But limited war time photo showing using this pouch during Vietnam War."
As to canteen covers, again I am not sure if the 30-rounders would fit. I have seen six or so 20-rounders in canteen carriers, and that was a tight fit. Perhaps someone has photos?
Cheers
HANS
"According to Rottman US ARMY COMBAT EQUIPMENTS and Stanton US ARMY UNIFORMS OF THE VIETNAM WAR, the 30-rounder pouches were adopted in 1974. They may have been around earlier, but they were certainly not common. "
ALICE came out in 1974. M67 came out before that. I got a photo of a Marine Force Recon officer with the M67 30 round ammo pouches, so they were around in limited quantities during the war.
HCV, I got 30 round mags an they fit fine in the M56 ammo pouches. Also, the only problem the M56 ammo pouches had was with the 20 round mags, since the pouch was too deep for the 20 round mags, making it a bit difficult to remove the mags, you see some LRRPs/Rangers(an I assume others) with guntape "magpulls" to help make it easier on removing the mags.
If 20 round mags are used with the 1956 pouches, something would have to be at the bottom to place the mags at a suitable height, like a pair of socks, etc.
The M-1956 'universal ' small arms ammunition case was actually designed to hold BAR ammunition magazines - not M14 ammunition magazines [they could hold the M16 20-round ammunition magazines but most put a field dressing or rolled up sock in the bottom to raise the ammunition magazines up]. In 1966 a 'short' M-1956 small arms ammunition case was introduced that held four 20-round M16 ammunition magazines.
The M-1967 MLCE introduced the nylon version of the 1966 20-round M16 ammunition magazine case [it actually didn't hit the field until 1968].
The first 'working' 30-round M16 ammunition magazines were introduced in 1968-69 in VERY small quantities. The M-1967 MLCE 30-round ammunition magazine case didin't start hitting the field until late 1969-70.
ALICE was actually fielded in late 1973 [I have a picture of A US Marine using it during the Saigon evacuation] and was originally designated M-1972 ILCE.
But the answer to your question - according to photographic evidence - is...canteen covers.
There is also mention by members of more elite forces of use of captured web gear for 30 round AK mags, for both the M16 and the T223.
Which brings me back to the original question -- did they actually fit? Cause the photos I have seen seem to indicate that only the 20-rounders would fit into a 1-quart cover, at least vertically -- unless you leave the flaps unsnapped, which would invite accidental loss.Originally Posted by sgtmonroe
IF you could fit 30-rounders in a canteen cover, how much would fit in there? Thanks!
Cheers
HANS
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