Thread: Israel Defense Forces (Read First Post!)

  1. #7531
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    Quote Originally Posted by DID View Post
    That's the million dollars question!
    billion dollar question

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    Senior Member GB_FXST's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaplanr View Post
    Zenchan, was the miklaon the FN FAL c2 with the heavier barrel? How many rounds to a magazine?

    Also, has anyone ever heard, seen or read that the German MP-40 was the standard smg of the IDF paratroops before 56?
    [FONT=Arial]I have never heard this before, but Wikipedia notes that the IDF did use it.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_40#Users[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial]It is certainly plausible as other German arms from WWII were used.[/FONT]

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    Senior Member GrimReaper's Avatar
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    Wrongly called the "Schmeisser" most of the time, the MP-40 was used both in the IDF and "Machtarot". There are several photos of pre-uzi paratroopers and 101st using it.
    Meir Har-Zion can be seen carrying it over here:
    http://www.202.org.il/Pages/yechida101/har.php

    Until the Uzi became standard, there was a mishmash of smgs in use: Stens, Tommy guns, carl gustavs, "schmeisser", even barretas (including with paratroopers on leave who hiked to Petra), suomis and PPSHs in pre-IDF forces.
    Last edited by GrimReaper; 11-01-2009 at 08:02 PM.

  4. #7534
    Senior Member Kaplanr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimReaper View Post
    Wrongly called the "Schmeisser" most of the time, the MP-40 was used both in the IDF and "Machtarot". There are several photos of pre-uzi paratroopers and 101st using it.
    Meir Har-Zion can be seen carrying it over here:
    http://www.202.org.il/Pages/yechida101/har.php

    Until the Uzi became standard, there was a mishmash of smgs in use: Stens, Tommy guns, carl gustavs, "schmeisser", even barretas (including with paratroopers on leave who hiked to Petra), suomis and PPSHs in pre-IDF forces.
    Thanks for the info. I didn't know that. I just assumed they used KAR-98s and a few Stens or Thompsons.

  5. #7535
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    Kaplan, GB FXST:

    Yes it was a IMI homemade variant of the C2 version, the same round forearm as with all IDF "Romat", a long muzzle flash hider (similar to that of the MAG) and a flimsy, IDF made bipod which had the bad habit of breaking a leg sometimes.

    MP 40 in the IDF: After 1948 the IDF had - along with homemade or stolen british Stens - a number of US Tommy Guns (mostly the M 1928 version, these came via the Brits!) and some (a small number) MP 40 of german origin.

    Some of these were pickups from North Africa or other WWII battlefields, the others were included in the Czech package deal along with MG 34 and 98k bolt action rifles whose clandestine arrival virtually saved the country in April/May 1948.

    For a relatively short time in 1954/55 the majority of the MP 40 in the IDF arsenals were assembled from various depots and handed out to Plugat 101 . This was in the days of Meir Har-Zion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Har-Zion). He and a number of his comrades were shown holding and training with the MP 40 in a series of pictures done for the IDF spokesman's office. This was in a time , when 101 was commdnded by an unknown Major A. Sharon....

    The MP 40 shared the same problems of feeding and jamming with the Stens, so after a while the MP 40 was dropped in 101 in favor of the much more reliable Tommy Guns. Shortly after 101 was fused together with the Paratroop Battalion 890, the first Uzi Submachine guns came off the assembly line and were handed out to fieldtests in the fledgling airborne unit. But it took until late 1955 that the Uzi completely replaced the Tommy Guns in the paratroop units.

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    Senior Member oldsoak's Avatar
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    for those who might want to know why - the feed problem experienced by the MP40 and Sten was due to the quality of their respective magazines. Both could suffer from the lips of the magazine being deformed. German MP's were better made and the mags of superior quality - the British Sten being a lot worse than the MP in this respect - although Canadian manufactured Stens were better made and their magazines more reliable. I suspect that the early IDF got a load of war surplus weapons in a hurry and had to make do with what they got. The standardisation of the 9mm round within the IDF also pushed the Tommy gun out - they were .45 calibre and very well made, albeit heavy.

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    Banned user Givati575's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldsoak View Post
    for those who might want to know why - the feed problem experienced by the MP40 and Sten was due to the quality of their respective magazines. Both could suffer from the lips of the magazine being deformed. German MP's were better made and the mags of superior quality - the British Sten being a lot worse than the MP in this respect - although Canadian manufactured Stens were better made and their magazines more reliable. I suspect that the early IDF got a load of war surplus weapons in a hurry and had to make do with what they got. The standardisation of the 9mm round within the IDF also pushed the Tommy gun out - they were .45 calibre and very well made, albeit heavy.
    my grandfathers car parts factory in detroit was converted into a Thomson party factors during the World War 2. He used left over parts from the war and 'shipped' them over to Israel for use during the War of Independance.

    Don't bother reporting me for ' war crimes ' My grandfather passed away.

  8. #7538
    Senior Member Kaplanr's Avatar
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    It's not war crimes, but he violated the Neutrality Acts or some such thing. Al Shwimmer wasn't pardoned for that until 1996.

  9. #7539
    Senior Member DID's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GB_FXST View Post
    [FONT=Arial]I have never heard this before, but Wikipedia notes that the IDF did use it.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_40#Users[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial]It is certainly plausible as other German arms from WWII were used.[/FONT]
    A lot of weapon that were used by IDF in the decade after 1948 are coming from Czeckoslovakian sellers and were German.
    Even not far away in the past IDF and some civilian were issuing the mauser WWII (I dont remember the name of it) as a sniper rifle!
    I think there is no problem with this even if Nazis made them, weapons are weapons and if they are made by nazis they are not more evil than american or USSR ones.

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    Senior Member oldsoak's Avatar
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    @givati575
    Eh ? Why would I want to report you for that ? or your grandfather ? - may he rest in peace.
    I can appreciate that Jews of that time felt their only guarantee of security was in themselves and not someone else.

  11. #7541
    Senior Member DID's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Givati575 View Post
    my grandfathers car parts factory in detroit was converted into a Thomson party factors during the World War 2. He used left over parts from the war and 'shipped' them over to Israel for use during the War of Independance.

    Don't bother reporting me for ' war crimes ' My grandfather passed away.
    A true hero! RIP

  12. #7542
    Senior Member GB_FXST's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DID View Post
    A lot of weapon that were used by IDF in the decade after 1948 are coming from Czeckoslovakian sellers and were German.
    Even not far away in the past IDF and some civilian were issuing the mauser WWII (I dont remember the name of it) as a sniper rifle!
    I think there is no problem with this even if Nazis made them, weapons are weapons and if they are made by nazis they are not more evil than american or USSR ones.
    [FONT=Arial]I may have it wrong, but am under the impression that the IDF removed Nazi symbols from these weapons. I know that at least the Mausers have IDF markings.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial]Although, I would not be surprised to learn that somewhere there is a rifle with both Nazi and IDF markings.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial]I know that ex-IDF Mausers can be purchased in the US.[/FONT]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Givati575 View Post
    war hero

    Fixed your typo.

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    Senior Member Sumadinac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GB_FXST View Post
    [FONT=Arial]I may have it wrong, but am under the impression that the IDF removed Nazi symbols from these weapons. I know that at least the Mausers have IDF markings.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial]Although, I would not be surprised to learn that somewhere there is a rifle with both Nazi and IDF markings.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial]I know that ex-IDF Mausers can be purchased in the US.[/FONT]
    It is correct;

    "Israeli-used German surplus Mauser Karabiner 98k rifles have had all of the Nazi Waffenamt markings and emblems defaced with over stamped Israeli Defence Force (IDF) and Hebrew markings as part of an effort to ideologically "purify" the rifles from their former use as an infantry weapon of Nazi Germany."

    "As the Arab-Israeli conflict approached, the Haganah and other Jewish forces in Palestine tried to get hold of as many weapons as they could in the face of an arms embargo by British colonial authorities. One of most important purchases was a secret January 14 1948, $12,280,000 worth contract with Czechoslovak Government including 4,500 P-18 rifles, as well as 50,400,000 rounds of ammunition. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldsoak View Post
    @givati575
    Eh ? Why would I want to report you for that ? or your grandfather ? - may he rest in peace.
    I can appreciate that Jews of that time felt their only guarantee of security was in themselves and not someone else.
    He's most likely joking around.
    Quote Originally Posted by GB_FXST View Post
    [FONT=Arial]I may have it wrong, but am under the impression that the IDF removed Nazi symbols from these weapons. I know that at least the Mausers have IDF markings.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial]Although, I would not be surprised to learn that somewhere there is a rifle with both Nazi and IDF markings.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial]I know that ex-IDF Mausers can be purchased in the US.[/FONT]
    My Grandfather who fought in the Independence War had told my dad that they did have symbols from Nazi Germany on their MG's.

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