Battle of Berlin, 1945.

[sgtfcm]

[Musashi]

I haven't seen this photo with Polish soldiers in Berlin so far.
Thank you.

[jasonblaster]

Yeah, I mean come on, I've taken watches off of several enemy soldier KIAs. Also, like to go through their wallets, and take any cash they may have, or cigarettes. Maybe dirty photos of their lovies.

Kill, Rape, Pillage, oh the life of a WWII front line trooper doesn't get any better than this.

[nahimov]

Yeah, I mean come on, I've taken watches off of several enemy soldier KIAs. Also, like to go through their wallets, and take any cash they may have, or cigarettes. Maybe dirty photos of their lovies.

Kill, Rape, Pillage, oh the life of a WWII front line trooper doesn't get any better than this.

So if the guy had 2 watches that means he raped, killed civilians and pillaged? How did ya get to that?

[Foinikas]

You read too much Beavor and not enough real History. What the Nazi's did to their own people fails in comparison to these alleged hundreds of thousands of rapes which took place... Funny, how these modern Soviet bashing books conveniently forget to include pictures of the Army field kitchens feeding Berliners or how Hitler ordered to flood the Subways, together with the civilians taking refuge in the underground systems... Or the roving bands, hanging "deserters" right and left, even after the surrender.

Soviet Army were issuing strict decrees to prohibit crimes against the populace or property since the cross over into Poland and all the way to Berlin. Something very different from the ordered atrocities that Nazi's committed. I'm not denying that crimes were committed by individuals - but don't turn the blind eye to the actions taken to prevent them.

And of course you don't mention that there were orders from the Soviet government and the big heads of the Army that not just advised the soldiers to kill germans,but also ordered them to kill Germans and made the typical Soviet soldier(who was already bittered by the war in his country and all the destruction the Germans caused)to feel as if it's his moral obligation to butcher every single German.

Such orders which right now I don't remember the names of the people who issued them but I can give them to you some other time,included stuff like "Have you killed a German today?If not kill one soon!Kill kill kill!"or
"Don't feel pity,the Germans are not human.Take revenge for the motherland"etc.

Orders from Stalin and ministers were issued that had such words inside.So you can imagine a Soviet soldier who has been poor all his life,exhausted,brought from the other side of the Soviet Union,tired of all these years of communism seeing a chance to loot and plunder and have "fun" with noone telling him anything and on the contrary listening to his superiors tell him to kill and do whatever he wants freely...then....you can imagine what can happen when such a guy goes to Berlin.

[Swerap]

Great pictures Leon!
Too bad they had to make it a political thing of it.

Can everybody please stop to destroy such a great thread!!!

If you all want to discuss who did what and who was worst,
take it elsewhere!!!

[kazbitch]

Great thread! Foinikas why did you need to post that political rant in a PICTURE thread that has been idle since October 05?

oh and from the first page the Reichschancellory.....


Family pic taken from this thread i started last summer.

[toki]

Not to derail it: A few impression how times have changed...

45:


Now:



where the Reichskanzlei was:
45:


Now:
Wilhelmstraße, Berlin-Mitte. (I sometimes stay at an appartement under the roof up there!) the blocks are late 80's, pretty much the last "new" blocks in DDR time.

[Gluten]

Swedish SS-volunteer by the way. Probably killed by a Soviet soldiers handgrenade.

Stupid volunteers!!!!!!!!!!!

[Smok]

This destroyed vehicle on the right - what is it? WWI Austin Putilov??

[Nick063]

No, he's not. He's simply able to see in nuances, rather than black or white.

Nazi Germany was a totalitarian, murderous regime. The Soviet Union was also a totalitarian, murderous regime.

German soldiers committed atrocities, predominantly on the eastern front (mostly politicized units like the Einsatzgruppen, but that is irrelevant to the point).
Soviet soldiers committed atrocities in Germany.

This is not a who is better, who is worse. German and soviet soldiers were told they could do whatever they wanted (Hitler told his troops the Slavs were sub-human, Stalin expressly authorized rape). And some did.

There were honorable soldiers on both sides, but in the end, they were both fighting for fascist regimes that one after the other crushed Europe under their boot. But somehow, only one side's crimes are appropriately denounced and remembered. The other side's crimes were muted. History is written (and in Stalin's case, re-written later) by the victors.

Doesn't hurt to talk about it though. You can refuse it, you can deny it. You can portray nazi or soviet troops as angels or heroes.

Or you can draw nuances, you can seek to find out that most atrocities committed by nazis were the work of einsatzgruppen, and that most of the rapes in Germany/eastern Europe were the work of second-line, drunk troops, not of the front-line units who actually captured the cities. But the bottom line is, at some points, both side behaved like barbarians and became virtually indistinguishable from one another.

Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were similar in a lot of ways; how they ruled, how they conquered; how they disregarded human life.

One's defeat did not however erase the crimes of the other.

But hey, it was war, wasn't it? All sorts of bad things happened. It's only fair to add to the holocaust, the repression in occupied territories and other crimes against humanity, the bombing of cities, the forced expulsion, the ethnic cleansing, the rapes, etc., the misdeeds of the victors as well as those of the vanquished.

It's done, it's done. Now, as Toki said, let's just enjoy the pics.

i couldnt have said it better myself!

[CPL Trevoga]

And of course you don't mention that there were orders from the Soviet government and the big heads of the Army that not just advised the soldiers to kill germans,but also ordered them to kill Germans and made the typical Soviet soldier(who was already bittered by the war in his country and all the destruction the Germans caused)to feel as if it's his moral obligation to butcher every single German.

Such orders which right now I don't remember the names of the people who issued them but I can give them to you some other time,included stuff like "Have you killed a German today?If not kill one soon!Kill kill kill!"or
"Don't feel pity,the Germans are not human.Take revenge for the motherland"etc.

Orders from Stalin and ministers were issued that had such words inside.So you can imagine a Soviet soldier who has been poor all his life,exhausted,brought from the other side of the Soviet Union,tired of all these years of communism seeing a chance to loot and plunder and have "fun" with noone telling him anything and on the contrary listening to his superiors tell him to kill and do whatever he wants freely...then....you can imagine what can happen when such a guy goes to Berlin.

BAN THE ARCHELOGIST!!!!

[kongman]

awsome pics guys , yes its a shame about all the flaming .....pity you guys cant find your own thread to do it in ,

love those pics of the tigers im a big fan of german armour , its amazing if the allies hadnt of cut of the germans supplies could they of improved there tanks i wonder.................................. i mean most of the german tank crews where alot better tained than there soviet and amercan counter parts and the tank where a better quality for most of the war .....

[hammerlock]

And of course you don't mention that there were orders from the Soviet government and the big heads of the Army that not just advised the soldiers to kill germans,but also ordered them to kill Germans and made the typical Soviet soldier(who was already bittered by the war in his country and all the destruction the Germans caused)to feel as if it's his moral obligation to butcher every single German.

Such orders which right now I don't remember the names of the people who issued them but I can give them to you some other time,included stuff like "Have you killed a German today?If not kill one soon!Kill kill kill!"or
"Don't feel pity,the Germans are not human.Take revenge for the motherland"etc.

Orders from Stalin and ministers were issued that had such words inside.So you can imagine a Soviet soldier who has been poor all his life,exhausted,brought from the other side of the Soviet Union,tired of all these years of communism seeing a chance to loot and plunder and have "fun" with noone telling him anything and on the contrary listening to his superiors tell him to kill and do whatever he wants freely...then....you can imagine what can happen when such a guy goes to Berlin.

Along with being allowed to rape pretty much any things that moved.

[Shellshock1918]

If anyone would like a good account of the Battle of Berlin, read Cornelius Ryan's The Last Battle.
Also, this side discussion about Soviet troops committing rape...this was mostly among rear echelon troops. The front line soldiers were not this way and did not treat the civilian population that way.