Polish Armor (tons of photos)

[Pan_Grzegorz]

I agree with Coran, why design and build a Polish IVF which would cost more, when we can buy a good IFV from a forieng country, which would be mostly produced in Poland anyhow, not to mention the technology transfers we would get. I don't have a problem with buying foreign equipment as long as there is good cooperation with the other side and they don't screw us aroudn when it comes to tech transfers and building parts domestically.

Like coran said it's not worth paying twice as much for something designed bottom - up by a Polish compnay, then to purchase something already on the market and pay less for it.

Theoretically we can buy everything from other countries...
Why do you think that Polish IFV would cost more ? I am not so sure about It. I don't say that we must build own IFV no matter what, but definately we should do some studies, build models, check what we could produce and which elements would have to be imported, count the costs etc. and then make a decision. Even If some elements would have to be foreign It's still better, because of many reasons to have Polish IFV with let's say 25% foreign elements than a foreign IFV built in 75% by Polish factories.

[corran.pl]

but if it would cost less?

It wouldn't, as I sad before - it is not that impotent either wy buy foreign or "Polish" IFV - both of them will probably use same canon and turret (and Spike missiles), bot of them will be produced in Poland

we shouldn't count just money we throw on it, but we should also remamber that money spend inside country will back to budget in taxes while money spend outside won't, also with simple buy we can't obtain new technologies and our scientist cant improve and learn, so sometimes spending more on domestic product will be more profitable than buing abroad

You don't understand at all. Even if we design "Polish" IFV it will have US made cannon, Israeli made missiles, Italian turret and German engine - it is possible that "Polish" IFV would have more foreign components then the "foreign" one. There also is an option that we want to make Real Polish Made IVF (R) but it would cost two or three times more then normal IFV. We are not China or Iran, we don't have to develop technologies from zero, it is cheaper to buy them.

And last thing - I'm nos saying that we must buy foreign IFV, probably we will have competition if BWP-2000 will be best chose - good, if not it is no problem to me. Our goal is to give our soldiers best IVF for the lowest possible price, not to create new jobs or sell anything to Iraq.

[wholagun]

Research and development of a Polish IFV which is 100% Polish would be astronomical. Like Coran said we would most likely buy parts and pieces from foreign countries anyhow like on our Rosomak with the hitfist turret, and Israeli MG system. What would our industry actually design and produce - the hull, suspention system?

I totally understand that it would be good for the Polish defense industry to design and build a Polish IFV but we don't have enough money, we're not the US to throw money at lockeed martin or boeing. By buying foreign defense equipment we would also be getting expertise and technology via the offset deal which would be included in business deal.

I'll admit I don't know a lot about the CV90 and even less about the German Puma and other IFVs but Im sure we could easily customize it to our requirements like with the C130 transportable Rosomak. From what I've seen I like the CV90 and I would be happy if purchased it. I just hope any IFV we purchase it will have a **** load of armour on it, b/c Iraq has show that combat intensive missions need good heavily armoured vehicles.

[Pan_Grzegorz]

but if it would cost less? we shouldn't count just money we throw on it, but we should also remamber that money spend inside country will back to budget in taxes while money spend outside won't, also with simple buy we can't obtain new technologies and our scientist cant improve and learn, so sometimes spending more on domestic product will be more profitable than buing abroad (i'm not saying in all cases but sometimes it is wise)

True, but that's just one thing. The 2nd is that a defense system is not only army alone, but also a defese industry is a very important part of It and without export the industry won't survive, then we would have to import also spare parts, repairing services etc. or pay subsides to keep them alive. In case of export we can't sell Soviet designed stuff forever. 3rd - every piece of equipment is designed for own army, even customized version is not like a vehicle built since the begining for Polish requierments.

[wholagun]

do you think we could afford it? I don't doubt Polish engineers abilities but there is just not enough money to fund the various resarch projects.

[Resurrection]

I just hope any IFV we purchase it will have a **** load of armour on it, b/c Iraq has show that combat intensive missions need good heavily armoured vehicles.

Trust me, the latest CV 90 version (CV 9040C) does have a sh*t load of armor. I think the photos below showing the differences between the CV 9040B and the C version speak for themselves.



CV 9040B


CV 9040C (note the much improved turret and hull armor) - picture taken by Luno


So far though, there is no export version of it with the extra armor seen in the picture above. This is how the latest export version looks like (CV 9035 Mk III):

[Pan_Grzegorz]

Research and development of a Polish IFV which is 100% Polish would be astronomical. What would our industry actually design and produce - the hull, suspention system?

100% Polish would have no sense but we could think about 2 options:

1. 90-95% Polish with foreign only main gun and missiles.
2. about 75% Polish with a few more foreign elements, engine for example.

The first one would be very expensive indeed, but the second is quite realistic.

I totally understand that it would be good for the Polish defense industry to design and build a Polish IFV but we don't have enough money, we're not the US to throw money at lockeed martin or boeing.

It doesn't have to be paid by the army only. Bumar has some money from these contracts with Malesia, India, Iraq and from growing Polish orders, so they themselves could pay let's say 1/3 of costs (or even more) next 1/3 could be paid by KBN (Komitet badan naukowych or whatever It is called now) and only last one third by the army - If we found a foreign partner with cash and/or technology then army could pay nothing at all.
Besides we don't need any revolotionary, extremely technologicaly advenced vehicle, just quite good and relatively cheap - that together with a fact that even quite good scientists in Poland are still often getting less than simple workers in Germany means that costs of r&d shouldn't be very high.

By buying foreign defense equipment we would also be getting expertise and technology via the offset deal which would be included in business deal.

Sure. Look at the whole "technology" we got from F-16. Contract with Patria is quite good (although far from perfect) mostly because this a new vehicle and they needed to win some big contract for marketing reasons - that's why they offered good conditions.

[corran.pl]

100% Polish would have no sense but we could think about 2 options:

1. 90-95% Polish with foreign only main gun and missiles.
2. about 75% Polish with a few more foreign elements, engine for example.

You have no idea what you are talking about - do you? Main Gun + Fire Control System + Missiles - that is about 1/3 of cost of all IFV.

The first one would be very expensive indeed, but the second is quite realistic.

It doesn't have to be paid by the army only. Bumar has some money from these contracts with Malesia, India, Iraq and from growing Polish orders, so they themselves could pay let's say 1/3 of costs (or even more) next 1/3 could be paid by KBN (Komitet badan naukowych or whatever It is called now) and only last one third by the army - If we found a foreign partner with cash and/or technology then army could pay nothing at all.

So that way or another R&D will be paid from Polish Budget. What foreign partner you are talking about? Say it.

Besides we don't need any revolotionary, extremely technologicaly advenced vehicle, just quite good and relatively cheap - that together with a fact that even quite good scientists in Poland are still often getting less than simple workers in Germany means that costs of r&d shouldn't be very high.

You really don't know what you are talking about. Show me project designed in Europe in past 10 years that was cheap.

Sure. Look at the whole "technology" we got from F-16.

What do you want? Maybe you don't know but Poland was never a producer of Jet fighters (yes we were producing some MiG-15 on license, nothing more) like for example Sweden. Engines for our F-16 will be mounted in WSK Rzeszów that is good enough for me.

Our politics brainwashed people that offset for F-16 will stop unemployment, give us new technologies, make everybody happy and every woman will have better orgasms. Some people (like Pan_Grzegorz) believed them. We are buying F-16 because we need Jet fighter to replace MiG-21 - I can't belive that some people can't understand that.

[corran.pl]

Trust me, the latest CV 90 version (CV 9040C) does have a sh*t load of armor. I think the photos below showing the differences between the CV 9040B and the C version speak for themselves.

We probably prefer custom version armed with 30mm Bushmaster II Mk 44 (used on our KTO Rosomak) or 40mm Bushmaster II Mk 44 (they have many common elements) + sh*t load of armor from CV 9040C.

[perdurabo]

corran.pl you understand that economics is closed circle?anything that we spend inside country will finally go back to budget and on its way it will improve our economics anything that we spend abroad will go to budget and improve economics of this country.
Thats why i propose lets start inventing new military structure and adequate equipment to it, we don't need to have big military we need to have it very highly advenced technologically, we are too small country to loose ppl by sending them on first line lets start building robotic fighting vehicles (for egzample strike helicopter, we can buy cobra, we can produce our heli based on w3 or we can produce robotic attack helicopter using sw4, we have all that is needed to build it!) this would cost us so much that we would poke our eyes out seeing amount of money but this money would go to polish engineeres that would buy polish sausages and polish clothes and paying taxes in poland sausages producer would also pay its taxes in poland etc etc... all money you invest would improve our economy would give work places and payed off. Its your choice you can pay for "becikowe" or "górnicze emerytury" or onto projects that will give us jobs and kick our economy up(if you don't belive me that we have enough cash in budget just check our budget how much cash we spend on R&D and how much on all those social **** that isn't working).

[corran.pl]

corran.pl you understand that economics is closed circle?anything that we spend inside country will finally go back to budget and on its way it will improve our economics anything that we spend abroad will go to budget and improve economics of this country.

And can't you understand that it is not important that we buy foreign or Polish IFV because both of them will have same number of polish made and foreign elements? I'm writing this for a third time.

If you want to improve economy lower the taxes, cut corruption etc.

Thats why i propose lets start inventing new military structure and adequate equipment to it, we don't need to have big military we need to have it very highly advenced technologically, we are too small country to loose ppl by sending them on first line lets start building robotic fighting vehicles (for egzample strike helicopter, we can buy cobra, we can produce our heli based on w3 or we can produce robotic attack helicopter using sw4, we have all that is needed to build it!)

No we have not, we have no technology to build long range guided missiles, we have no technology to build targeting/observational system, we have no technology to give a glass cockpit to this copter, even engine on SW-4 is US made, and engine from W-3 is build on license from CCCP. Can't you understand that this hypothetical Polish copter (R) would have only few, less advanced parts that are really designed and made in Poland. Same with IFV.

this would cost us so much that we would poke our eyes out seeing amount of money but this money would go to polish engineeres that would buy polish sausages and polish clothes and paying taxes in poland sausages producer would also pay its taxes in poland etc etc...

Bull****, qualified engineers will always find a work - for example I wish I would work in the biggest in Europe factory of LCD Matrix's that LG/Phillips will build in my city.

If creating new jobs is your prepuce spend all money on investments - not buy useless tanks and copters. If you are trying to use something (Military Industry) to something that it wasn't designed for (stooping unemployment) - it will look like in France and Germany, they are paying twice a price for everything and unemployment is still rising.

all money you invest would improve our economy would give work places and payed off. Its your choice you can pay for "becikowe" or "górnicze emerytury" or onto projects that will give us jobs and kick our economy up(if you don't belive me that we have enough cash in budget just check our budget how much cash we spend on R&D and how much on all those social **** that isn't working).

NO - you don't understand - becikowe and using military to create new jobs is a same way of thinking. We need investments, we need need jobs for all this unqualified assholes that prefer to take money form government for nothing instead of moving their asses and going to job. Qualified engineers will always find jobs for them. What do you think - how many people is workning on bigest Polish avation factory - PZL Świdnik?

Another example, on 90s we had many small military companies - each and every one of them was generating looses and every one was afraid to kick out anyone from company even if they had nothing to do (the government was paying all those people and there was no money left for orders). Not so long ago most of this company's were grouped in one big corporation called Bumar, they kick out half of the workers but now they are strong company that has millions of $ profits, that goes to government (he is owner of Bumar) - that can go for another investments and creation of new jobs.

[Pan_Grzegorz]

You have no idea what you are talking about - do you? Main Gun + Fire Control System + Missiles - that is about 1/3 of cost of all IFV.

Why FCS ? If we could create a quite good FCS for a tank then why not for IFV ? Missiles obviously must be foreign.

Whatever.

So that way or another R&D will be paid from Polish Budget. What foreign partner you are talking about? Say it.

I thought you were worried that there won't be enough money for new equipment If a lot of from army's budget is spent on r&d, but now I completely don't understand what is your problem with that. Do you want our economy to be based on export of these garden's trolls and Christmas trees to Germany ??
What foreign partner ? Any, which is willing to add some cash and/or technology to this project.

You really don't know what you are talking about.

Dude, I will let others decide who have no idea.

What do you want? Maybe you don't know but Poland was never a producer of Jet fighters (yes we were producing some MiG-15 on license, nothing more) like for example Sweden.

I am just saying that there is no any srious transfer of technology, so don't tell me that buying foreign is so cool, because we can get technology. Any foreign producer won't give us any advanced technogy, because then few years later they would meet our companies running against them in some different tender with a product based on their own technology, so why the hell would they create competition for themselves ??

[Pan_Grzegorz]

No we have not, we have no technology to build long range guided missiles, we have no technology to build targeting/observational system, we have no technology to give a glass cockpit to this copter, even engine on SW-4 is US made, and engine from W-3 is build on license from CCCP.

There are people, who don't even want to spend some cash to design a steel box on tracks, so It's not surprising.

[corran.pl]

There are people, who don't even want to spend some cash to design a steel box on tracks, so It's not surprising.

If you have no arguments - you can star flaming but I won't discuss with you, so start posting pictures (this is Strictly Photos & Video section after all) or get out.

In 90s we already had people that wanted to make everything on their own - PT-94 Gorilla Main Battle Tank (totally new design - not another T-72 based thing), BWP-2000 IVF, Huzar attack helicopter, PZL-230 Scorpio attack plane, PZL I-22 Iryda jet trainer, Krab howitzer, PZA Loara artillery AA gun, PZR Loara-R AA missile system, Gawron class corvette etc., etc.

[Pan_Grzegorz]

If you have no arguments - you can star flaming but I won't discuss with you, so start posting pictures (this is Strictly Photos & Video section after all) or get out.

I would say that I have already showed quite a few arguments in this thread.

In 90s we already had people that wanted to make everything on their own - PT-94 Gorilla Main Battle Tank (totally new design - not another T-72 based thing), BWP-2000 IVF, Huzar attack helicopter, PZL-230 Scorpio attack plane, PZL I-22 Iryda jet trainer, Krab howitzer, PZA Loara artillery AA gun, PZR Loara-R AA missile system, Gawron class corvette etc., etc.

Scorpion was not a good idea, but the rest with a little bit of foreign technology and serious money spent on the whole projects could be interesitng and in case of PZA or Krab IS quite interesting.