Reply With Quote(EH 93 z.b.)
Mix crew
that is MPRT pattern wright?
Well, it's not like Croatia had that much of all such resources in period of 1992-1995 during what time current Fishbed fleet was obtained.Originally Posted by marcellogo
But, maybe all those media titles "HRZ offered this..", "HRZ offered that" with obvious downgrading in offers from Grippen in 2008. across used F-16 last year to F-4 now is nothing else than conditioning of the Croatians to the fact that fighter component will be lost in rather short period of time.
Because when your expectations are being constantly downsized from new to used and now to almost antiquated plus that what you now got also constantly being spitted on, result is what - to say, do we really need it?
All this time when it comes to military issues, in Croatian "objective" media the emphasis was on what we are incapable of doing (not on what we can do) and result is here: we can't afford new, we can't afford used, it is waste of money to overhaul what we have now... they've really screwed the minds of people.
Politicians aside, they've always been screwed up.
(EH 93 z.b.)
Mix crew
that is MPRT pattern wright?
BiH army probablythat is MPRT pattern wright?
I find it a little too much cospiracy theory but it there would be something like so.
However, the main reason of such articles and of all of what you are complaining about has a more simple reason: money.
They hav seen that red tape, complaint, scandals, insult and fake indignation sells more than correctnes and professionalism so they will keep on like that.
Aside of that news are not invented, the offer really came, and much many other was done, not only from Germany and not only to Croatia.
There is actually a perfect storm of weapons dismissal in all western world: Germany is in front position as it has decided to end military conscription but probably it will be Great Britain the one which defence cuts would have the more far reaching conclusion in the global scenario.
F-4F offer is not that bad as they depicted as the airplane is not such a scrap: it was updated in nineties (ice program) and could fly for about 8-10 years without big problems, so let's thank to Germany for making it; fact is that it is only completely, absolutely, irrimediably wrong compared to Croatian own need and possibilities, for all reason we had exposed in the past two pages of thread.
When I went in 2002 to Croatia my wife's cousin is a Genereal in the Army there (name withheld for obvious reasons), then, the debate was does Croatia need an Air Force? There were many opinions the a large Helicopter fleet with gunships at the forfront that could meet security needs added with top notch air defense systems, but times have changed I suppose. It was interesting to hear albeit thru my bored wife's translation.
Sadly, a few years later they decided we don't need those same gunships. The problem that I see is the Croatian mentality as a whole. If we take those F-4s, both the politicians and the public will say "great, we got that for free and we don't have to worry about it for the next 30 years". They won't see it as a stopgap measure, they'll see it as a solution. If we had professional politicians who would say "OK, we got ourselves the means to acquire experiance with twin engine fighters and a few more years to get the money for the Typhoons" I'd say go for it. But we don't.
QUOTE, altought i'm more for Mig21/Gripen solution (that also radically eliminate the problem above).
In every case let's wait until we could get some more precise data about this offer, as reported in such a manner like the press has done, it gave us only uncertainity and way more questions than answers.
Agreed with both, but as you said: problem is a) politics and b) money. Both of those are in such a focked up state it's not even funny anymore. Politicians got to go, money's got to come. Then we can discuss fighters.
As I remember, Italy in the 90s was in pretty much the same situation. It's fighters were getting old and Eurofighter was still years away. IIRC, they rented Tornados from UK and F-16 from the US.
It would be nice if Croatia "rented" a squadron of Gripens for a few years and afterwards purchased those and a few additional planes. But I'm afraid there's no money even for that.
What is left, when we eliminate the impossible, however improbable it seems, is to ground the MiG force and use PC-9s for flight hours until better times arrive. Like we did with Mi-24.... better times never arrived for them though...
I think the best solution would be that you get NATO providing Air Policing while obtaining your own PC9 fleet until you get new fighters.
I don't think any expensive temporary soultion could be pozitive in any way. It would just delay the actual purchase of new fighters (of corse, if that ever happens).
The problem is if we loose our combat jets, both the politicians and the public will call it a day and return to their next paycheck.
The politicians, the media and worst of all the people will say "Hey, we don't have any fighters and we're still here. Guess we don't need them after all"
If we retire MiGs without replacing them, I guarantee you that we will never again operate fighters. Then the next war will break out but that time we won't be able to say "JNA took everything".
There's also the issue of paying someone to guard your air space.
Yes, and long term that is far more expensive than operating our own fighters, in addition to the fact that some Italian pilot would hardly be willing to sacrifice his life for a country that isn't even his own. That alone would be enough to remove foreign air policing as an option in any sane country, unfortunately Croatia is anything but.
Sadly, our political mentality goes along the lines of "if we don't own them, then the money we're paying to someone else to fly isn't really going out of our pockets"
Well, there's a difference between grounding MiGs and disbanding MiGs. Just keep them on the ground, fly them at independence/army/storm day in fancy colours, but don't waste time and resources on them.
Maybe lease very small number of advanced aircraft? How much could leasing four or five Gripens cost? Then just land them on different airfield each day = massive airforce, Potemkin style!
Jokes aside, I'm sure there is a cheap and effective solution for the problem, but trouble is, politicians are too much occupied with maintaining their precious status quo (like using spoon to throw water from a sinking boat).
Having fighter pilots fly a few hours per year just for show is just as bad as not having fighters at all, not to mention how dangerous it is. Currency must be maintained, ideally 150+ hours per pilot.
And 4-5 Gripens means that we would be hard pressed to have 2 airworthy at any one time. For example, out of the stated minimum of 18 fighters we need, at any time 3-4 will be on minor maintenance and after flight inspection, another 2 on major maintenance such as the 100 hour check, and lets say unforssen circumstances keep another 2 grounded which leaves you with around 10 airworthy airframes, out of which 2 or 4 are on QRA.
It seems me that there is too many pessimism running on there...calm down a little and let's have a reality check please.
There is a problem about fighters, but there was one about Patria production and was solved, there was one about budget, previous minister was not good according to many people here but he left this years budget on the rise and with substantial programmes initiated and the new minister seems better according to all of us.
Air forces operates about one hundred aircraft, has a good operational proficency and an excellency in firefigting operations, for trasport/attack helicopters has new mil171 and also about new fighters political and military will to get themwas reiterated in several occasion, so please don't panic.
And about Italy we had Tornado ADV in lease and it was a painful error, F-4F for Croatia would be same or also worse, F-16 deal was OK and probably it would be good for Croatia also if ther would not be the usual problem of the two years gap needed to implement it.
So wait and see.
Posting Permissions
